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3. Marcos Alonso


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14 minutes ago, manpe said:

Maybe harsh, but I did say with a few exceptions. Some of the games where he scored he was still bad though. If a striker makes a goal-line clearance I will applaud him, but I won't judge his striking ability on that. As I won't give huge weight to a FB occasionally being in the right place at the right time or scoring the odd FK or two. Take away the goals and there's not much left to consider him anything special.

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Well said.

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He hasn't even kicked a ball yet for us and you guys are moaning.  Just remember who we currently have at RB. Moving Azpi over there alone would be a huge upgrade and if Alonso can become a consis

Hell of a struggle for him yesterday and he was clearly being targeted. An upgrade is a must and I think Conte knows by now. That's not to say Alonso won't be a useful squad player for a few year

Another sensational game he was brilliant. Traore was the only player I was worried about from that team and he marginalised the threat by Traore and going forward was such a threat. He lost Traore so

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29 minutes ago, manpe said:

Maybe harsh, but I did say with a few exceptions. Some of the games where he scored he was still bad though. If a striker makes a goal-line clearance I will applaud him, but I won't judge his striking ability on that. As I won't give huge weight to a FB occasionally being in the right place at the right time or scoring the odd FK or two. Take away the goals and there's not much left to consider him anything special.

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His defense problem wouldn't be as big if Luiz wasn't having his own issues.

But I do think that once we get the team pressing and defending tighter those issues wont be as big as they are now.

And to be fair on the guy he wasn't the only player not to do his job for several months last season.

I do wish we had gone for Telles! He would be great with us

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5 hours ago, manpe said:

Maybe harsh, but I did say with a few exceptions. Some of the games where he scored he was still bad though. If a striker makes a goal-line clearance I will applaud him, but I won't judge his striking ability on that. As I won't give huge weight to a FB occasionally being in the right place at the right time or scoring the odd FK or two. Take away the goals and there's not much left to consider him anything special.

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I hear you, but FBs have two jobs: one is to defend and the other is to contribute in attack. Some would say that an attacking FB's job is to attack first, again esp because the other one we got produces little in the final third.

You literally cannot contribute more in attack than scoring a goal.

And as mentioned above, these are important goals who change/changed games. Dribbling and linking up play nicely may or may not change games... Goals always do.

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11 hours ago, Robguima said:

Interesting that other attacking FBs don’t get the same criticism for lacking in defense (and most are not good in the air). Teams balance that out esp if you already have a purely defensive FB on the other side. Which makes covering even easier.

The system should play to the strength of the players you’ve got. Alonso is a threat to the opposition. If he is poor in defense get someone to cover him when he goes up. Who? Anyone who does not contribute as much as he does.

pretty common practice actually.

Alonso is not a good attacking FB, credit to him for his end product. Watch him for 90minutes he doesn't really attack well unlike other attacking FB. Other attacking FB put the opposition on their back foot and make them cautious attacking on their side. Alonso is a weakness and other teams target him. 

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8 hours ago, Clockwork said:

Alonso is not a good attacking FB, credit to him for his end product. Watch him for 90minutes he doesn't really attack well unlike other attacking FB. Other attacking FB put the opposition on their back foot and make them cautious attacking on their side. Alonso is a weakness and other teams target him. 

Heh watch him plenty. Great technique with silky passing doing one twos all the time with his teammates (like the pk against newcastle). His end product... what would that be then? What’s the reason to attack, to link up play, if not to score? Scoring is the goal of all attacking (no pun intended :)).

when you say that he’s not a good attacking FB, while I completely disagree, fair enough. One can argue he does not overlap as much as he should because of his lack of pace. But then when talking about him being targeted, then you lose me.

every attacking fullback is a weakness in defense and is targeted by the opposition. Not only because of his skill set but also the fact he will often leave his position in defense unguarded, well ... to attack.

Marcelo is a mule defending, prob the worst I’ve ever seen. And yet Real Madrid does not leak goals from his side on every game. It’s a choice they make (to employ him) and adjust the system to support him.

same way that when Eden beats a player or players with dribbling, often the defense adjusts and does not break. The system defends, not a single player. At least he's good in the air in defense.

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9 hours ago, Robguima said:

At least he's good in the air in defense.

Yeah, that is one thing I can credit him for. His physical contribution in the box is very useful. That's why Conte used him as a goal kick outlet, not many opposing full-backs can compete with him in the air, the same way Mou used Ivanovic.

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Sarri on Alomso

Wing-back Marcos Alonso has kept his place in the Chelsea side, despite Sarri changing the formation.

But it seems Alonso’s place is not safe as Sarri issued a warning to the Spaniard.

‘He is a very good player and can improve in the defensive phase,’ Sarri said about Alonso.

‘Of course (I have told him). He has physical qualities at the top level. I think that he can do more in the defensive phase. He is a good player in both but I think he can do more.’

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7 hours ago, Unionjack said:

The old boy does have a good left foot.

thats 4 sure dude , just needs to learn how to defend mmm better(that lazy tracking back bustmyballsfc grrrr) and grow a set and then tap tap boom sorted 

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4 hours ago, Unionjack said:

Sarri on Alomso

Wing-back Marcos Alonso has kept his place in the Chelsea side, despite Sarri changing the formation.

But it seems Alonso’s place is not safe as Sarri issued a warning to the Spaniard.

‘He is a very good player and can improve in the defensive phase,’ Sarri said about Alonso.

‘Of course (I have told him). He has physical qualities at the top level. I think that he can do more in the defensive phase. He is a good player in both but I think he can do more.’

While I'm glad he's thinking about defense, it does worry me.

Not so much Alonso defensive frailties, which is to be expected IMO (as I mentioned above attacking FBs...), but David Luiz next to him is like having another player who needs covering and a system to help him. So, it might become too great a task for any system.

Wonder how Sarri can address that. One option, which I've seen employed (a long time ago in a g...) by Scolari actually, before he got the ridiculous tag of being an attacking manager (he's always been a Mourinho type): he had a LB similar to Azpi (who's now a good manager in Brazil) and an attacking RB (also a manager in Paraguay). So, instead of moving the CM/DMs to cover the FB, the defense would shift right, turning into 3CB system when the attacking FB bombed forward. So, the defensive LD would become a CB and position himself like that temporarily. He also had two players in midfield who could defend well. Now, while that system worked wonders (very diff to break) he did not have a D. Luiz in defense... ;)

 

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42 minutes ago, Robguima said:

While I'm glad he's thinking about defense, it does worry me.

Not so much Alonso defensive frailties, which is to be expected IMO (as I mentioned above attacking FBs...), but David Luiz next to him is like having another player who needs covering and a system to help him. So, it might become too great a task for any system.

Wonder how Sarri can address that. One option, which I've seen employed (a long time ago in a g...) by Scolari actually, before he got the ridiculous tag of being an attacking manager (he's always been a Mourinho type): he had a LB similar to Azpi (who's now a good manager in Brazil) and an attacking RB (also a manager in Paraguay). So, instead of moving the CM/DMs to cover the FB, the defense would shift right, turning into 3CB system when the attacking FB bombed forward. So, the defensive LD would become a CB and position himself like that temporarily. He also had two players in midfield who could defend well. Now, while that system worked wonders (very diff to break) he did not have a D. Luiz in defense... ;)

 

I mentioned somewhere something similar

Alonsos defensive weaknesses wouldn't be as bad if we didn't also have Luiz's and vise versa But to have them both together its going to be painful at times.

And with Georgi not the stromgest defender we have to compensate somehow and sadly we dont have many options right now until we TRY to upgrade IF possible other than to let the Wee Baldy Man do a box to box job. With Kovacic good defending and attacking he can handle allot of the top end stuff and WBM can nip up n down where hes needed.

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26 minutes ago, Unionjack said:

I mentioned somewhere something similar

Alonsos defensive weaknesses wouldn't be as bad if we didn't also have Luiz's and vise versa But to have them both together its going to be painful at times.

And with Georgi not the stromgest defender we have to compensate somehow and sadly we dont have many options right now until we TRY to upgrade IF possible other than to let the Wee Baldy Man do a box to box job. With Kovacic good defending and attacking he can handle allot of the top end stuff and WBM can nip up n down where hes needed.

Alonso's offensive prowess makes up for his defensive liabilities (and I must say he looks better defensively as each game goes by), plus I think Sarri is pushing him hard to improve there. He is a very unique player, for better of for worse.

Luiz is not, and you are spot on about the danger of playing them both at the same time. People on Luiz's tip all base it off 2016-17, post Arsenal game (the back 3 switch game). Luiz was totally protected then by the other 2 CB's on his flanks, and still made too many mistakes. People get carried away with his flair. His passing also is overrated. He had some hit and hope great plays, but to see a true Sarriball passing CB, just go watch Koulibaly over the last 3 years.

I am resigned to the fact that Sarri is going to roll with Luiz, but if he starts playing like last year, he better bench his arse and play AC, who is as underrated it seems by many as Luiz is overrated.  I am still raging over that fucking Newcastle header with Luiz going his typical ballwatching statue act. 

There is a reason why Germany utterly destroyed a Luiz-lead Brasilian defence 7-1 in 2014 WC. He is nothing but older now, with all the same bad habits.

 

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3 hours ago, Vesper said:

Alonso's offensive prowess makes up for his defensive liabilities (and I must say he looks better defensively as each game goes by), plus I think Sarri is pushing him hard to improve there. He is a very unique player, for better of for worse.

Luiz is not, and you are spot on about the danger of playing them both at the same time. People on Luiz's tip all base it off 2016-17, post Arsenal game (the back 3 switch game). Luiz was totally protected then by the other 2 CB's on his flanks, and still made too many mistakes. People get carried away with his flair. His passing also is overrated. He had some hit and hope great plays, but to see a true Sarriball passing CB, just go watch Koulibaly over the last 3 years.

I am resigned to the fact that Sarri is going to roll with Luiz, but if he starts playing like last year, he better bench his arse and play AC, who is as underrated it seems by many as Luiz is overrated.  I am still raging over that fucking Newcastle header with Luiz going his typical ballwatching statue act. 

There is a reason why Germany utterly destroyed a Luiz-lead Brasilian defence 7-1 in 2014 WC. He is nothing but older now, with all the same bad habits.

 

Mostly agreed. Though I think David Luiz technique is not overrated and his passing is pretty impressive esp for a CB (range and precision). I mean I've seen mikel play for years and years and not hit a single one of DL long balls (and he did try :) ).

The thing is that there isn't such a thing as an attacking CB is there? :) I mean if there were, DL would've been king. So, as good as he may be with the ball at this feet, it cannot possibly make up for his defending or lack thereof.

For all his mistakes with us, I think Jose got this one right when he smartly moved Luiz into midfield and he did really well there (even scoring important goals) esp considering how short-lived the experiment was. If Luiz were smarter, he would have embraced it and become a solid mid. But reckon he still had Brazil CB position as a tangible goal. In the end whatever affects his decisions on the pitch is still there when he goes home. ;)

 

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40 minutes ago, Robguima said:

 

The thing is that there isn't such a thing as an attacking CB is there?

Franz Beckenbauer (greatest defender of all time, IMHO, overall, as well), Steve Bruce (19 goals in 1990-91 alone), Laurent Blanc (146  career goals) Fernando Hierro (163 goals in his career), Daniel Passarella (175 goals in his career) and of course, the greatest scoring central defender of all time, Ronald Koeman (253 goals in his career, 26 goals in a season for PSV in 87-88). The vast majority of all their games was at CB/Sweeper. I am sure there are others

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7 minutes ago, Vesper said:

Franz Beckenbauer (greatest defender of all time, IMHO, overall, as well), Steve Bruce (19 goals in 1990-91 alone), Laurent Blanc (146  career goals) Fernando Hierro (163 goals in his career), Daniel Passarella (175 goals in his career) and of course, the greatest scoring central defender of all time, Ronald Koeman (253 goals in his career, 26 goals in a season for PSV in 87-88). The vast majority of all their games was at CB/Sweeper. I am sure there are others

Some of Steve Bruce goals came from penalties 

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12 minutes ago, the wes said:

Most of Steve Bruce goals came from penalties 

The year he scored 19, 11 were pens yes, but for his career less than half of his goals were pens. He definitely played a big role in his teams attacks. He also is probably the least offensive of all the ones I listed, with 113 goals in his career. He had many headers from open play bombing up the middle or the side as well. I would deffo classify him as an attacking centre back at the end of the day.

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6 minutes ago, Vesper said:

The year he scored 19, 11 were pens yes, but for his career less than half of his goals were pens. He definitely played a big role in his teams attacks. He also is probably the least offensive of all the ones I listed, with 113 goals in his career. He had many headers from open play bombing up the middle or the side as well. I would deffo classify him as an attacking centre back at the end of the day.

JT hada good scoring record for someone who didn't hit free kicks or penalties

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