Willian

[NikkiCFC 7,561]

1 hour ago, cosmicway said:

Who was a better right winger than Willian ?
Zappacosta ? Moses ?

 

Stats in the PL :

Willian 204 games 29 goals 

Pedro 129 games 28 goals 

So in the last couple of seasons Pedro was our best right winger. And before Kalou gave us much more than Willian overall. But that's not a point. We needed to upgrade on both Willian and Pedro for about 3 years now. 

 

[1905didierblue 748]

49 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

Stats in the PL :

Willian 204 games 29 goals 

Pedro 129 games 28 goals 

So in the last couple of seasons Pedro was our best right winger. And before Kalou gave us much more than Willian overall. But that's not a point. We needed to upgrade on both Willian and Pedro for about 3 years now. 

 

Goal return is only ONE of the things to look at while comparing. Willian was a far far better fit in our system. With Hazard we needed an industrious right winger/right midfielder, which fit willian perfectly. 

[Jase 43,479]

This justification about Willian being in the XI is entering the 'Oscar is in the XI to provide balance' territory...

[Tomo 21,681]

6 minutes ago, Jason said:

This justification about Willian being in the XI is entering the 'Oscar is in the XI to provide balance' territory...

And equally, the excuses and reasoning for bashing him for any little thing is entering the Rafa terrority.

[Jase 43,479]

11 minutes ago, Tomo said:

And equally, the excuses and reasoning for bashing him for any little thing is entering the Rafa terrority.

It's only a very small amount of people, at least on here. Hardly as big as you're making it out to be. 

[communicate 2,703]

37 minutes ago, Jason said:

This justification about Willian being in the XI is entering the 'Oscar is in the XI to provide balance' territory...

Yet both cases were true. Do you realize we won the league with Fabregas in double pivot and Hazard. Two player who are atrocious defensively 

[Jase 43,479]

2 hours ago, communicate said:

Yet both cases were true. Do you realize we won the league with Fabregas in double pivot and Hazard. Two player who are atrocious defensively 

Don't I know it. But there was Azpi playing at LB to cover Hazard and Matic - before he went downhill in 2015/16 - to protect Fabregas and not to mention, we were playing in a more defensive system back then under Mourinho, especially when he decided to shut up shop after December 2014. 

[LAM09 6,535]

Not really, it all depend on your personel and system. You have striker like firmino and a while ago benzema who score maybe just 10 goals a season 

Firmino scored 16 goals in all comps last season & he's playing alongside the two best wingers ATM.

There's obviously the odd exception, but please don't compare that to what we have.

[communicate 2,703]

11 minutes ago, Jason said:

Don't I know it. But there was Azpi playing at LB to cover Hazard and Matic - before he went downhill in 2015/16 - to protect Fabregas and not to mention, we were playing in a more defensive system back then under Mourinho, especially when he decided to shut up shop after December 2014. 

Both Azpi and Oscar to cover Cesc and Hazard. Once Cesc go forward he simply cannot go back so Oscar cannot play like no 10 who just bomb forward.

In a perfect world, you want your striker to score goals, your winger to create and score and help your fb, your midfield to create and defend central area, your defender to defend but depending on what you have, you need to adjust. 

 

 

 

[Styl1994 188]

Willian being solid for us this season but I think that this should be his final season and all parties should move on in the summer.

[Jase 43,479]

 

[NikkiCFC 7,561]

It's Willian... He knows being free agent will get him huge salary in the next club plus big bonus for just signing. After all he played for Anzhi. 

[NikkiCFC 7,561]

16 hours ago, 1905didierblue said:

Goal return is only ONE of the things to look at while comparing. Willian was a far far better fit in our system. With Hazard we needed an industrious right winger/right midfielder, which fit willian perfectly. 

I disagree. Willian and Hazard both like to keep the ball for to long so for me they are not a dynamic duo. 

[1905didierblue 748]

2 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

I disagree. Willian and Hazard both like to keep the ball for to long so for me they are not a dynamic duo. 

Every manager has chosen willian as their right winger. So either they are all frauds, or a lot of fans here don't understand the game as well as they think they do. 

I know what I think is right.

[NikkiCFC 7,561]

1 hour ago, 1905didierblue said:

Every manager has chosen willian as their right winger. So either they are all frauds, or a lot of fans here don't understand the game as well as they think they do. 

I know what I think is right.

Do you know that Pedro and Willian have around equal PL minutes played in the last 3 season? And this is only because Pedro have much bigger injury record. Conte clearly preferred Pedro so when Hazard was injured Willian gained minutes he normally wouldn't. After all Conte wanted Willian out! Sarri started last season with Pedro before he got injured. Willian was starter for a while but again Pedro finished the season as a starter (watch EL final). 

Do you agree that since Willian and Pedro are at the club together (last four seasons) our most successful season is Conte's winning season 16/17? 

In 16/17 season Willian started 15 games with 1531 minutes played. Pedro 26 games with 2151 minutes on the pitch. Willian was only preferred in the season 15/16 when we finished 10th with clueless Mourinho and Hiddink. And yet in that season Pedro managed to score two goals more with 707 minutes less playing time. 

I'm not here to compere them but clearly both Sarri and Conte preferred Pedro over Willian. And this is telling us a lot since no one is happy with Pedro either among fans. We wanted upgrade on those two for years now. And I don't have problem to say that Willian looks better than Pedro this season. But overall to sum up your narrative is wrong. 

[Vesper 27,282]

3 hours ago, 1905didierblue said:

Every manager has chosen willian as their right winger. So either they are all frauds, or a lot of fans here don't understand the game as well as they think they do. 

I know what I think is right.

that is a logical fallacy

it is called appeal to authority

you also posit a false dichotomy (ie that they are either (1) frauds OR (2) the posters here do not understand the game well) when there are far more than 2 simple binary options in terms of structural explanations

so

overall a shoddy attempt to try and belittle the posters here

I rate it a 

FAIL

[1905didierblue 748]

1 hour ago, NikkiCFC said:

Do you know that Pedro and Willian have around equal PL minutes played in the last 3 season? And this is only because Pedro have much bigger injury record. Conte clearly preferred Pedro so when Hazard was injured Willian gained minutes he normally wouldn't. After all Conte wanted Willian out! Sarri started last season with Pedro before he got injured. Willian was starter for a while but again Pedro finished the season as a starter (watch EL final). 

Do you agree that since Willian and Pedro are at the club together (last four seasons) our most successful season is Conte's winning season 16/17? 

In 16/17 season Willian started 15 games with 1531 minutes played. Pedro 26 games with 2151 minutes on the pitch. Willian was only preferred in the season 15/16 when we finished 10th with clueless Mourinho and Hiddink. And yet in that season Pedro managed to score two goals more with 707 minutes less playing time. 

I'm not here to compere them but clearly both Sarri and Conte preferred Pedro over Willian. And this is telling us a lot since no one is happy with Pedro either among fans. We wanted upgrade on those two for years now. And I don't have problem to say that Willian looks better than Pedro this season. But overall to sum up your narrative is wrong. 

I dont know mate. When I compare Willian vs Pedro's minutes over the course of the last 4 seasons:

2018/19: 3533 vs 3099

2017/18: 3053 vs 2509 (conte season)

2016/17: 2076 vs 2723

2015/16: 3881 vs 2781

I think there is a clear choice of managers over pedro's 4 full season here. 

Conte wanting willian out was for different reasons. Similar to him wanting Costa out and using morata instead. I dont think you can use that as an argument for which player is better

Pedro's USP is his goal scoring. If we take successful take ons, Defensive interceptions and rating, number of turn overs etc etc, willian would be better than pedro. Each has his own merits, but given that we had eden on the left, and not really a very strong mid, you can see why the managers opted more for willy. 

Lastly, the fans are never happy. If we had a front 3 of CR, messi, Mbappe, they will still find a way to have a moan. 

[1905didierblue 748]

1 hour ago, Vesper said:

that is a logical fallacy

it is called appeal to authority

you also posit a false dichotomy (ie that they are either (1) frauds OR (2) the posters here do not understand the game well) when there are far more than 2 simple binary options in terms of structural explanations

If the sample size was 1 year or small, yes, i would agree. Fortunately, its not. Its across multiple years/seasons, across club and country. There is a reason willian is attracting interest from Barca and the rest, that you so vehemently keep reminding us. 

 

1 hour ago, Vesper said:

so

overall a shoddy attempt to try and belittle the posters here

I rate it a 

FAIL

 I dont have to. Have you read the comments on here? Its the same fan base that JUST A MONTH AGO was ridiculing lamps for starting tammy who according to some was a championship level striker. Some even thought we would finish in the bottom half if we persisted with this youth revolution. So believe me, Not belittling the fans here, they do that themselves. All you have to do is read some of the comments on the match day thread when the teams are announced. 

You can rate it whatever you want, still wont change the facts.