Oscar

[The only place to be 11,313]

The fact that the team's defensive organization is so dependant on an attacking midfielder is really not something that I think should lauded or celebrated.

Why? When Barca's game is dependent on every member of the team pressing, they are lauded and rightly so. Why on Earth should this aspect of our game not be celebrated?

To me, that doesn't signify a method that's sustainable or something that's a long term solution.

Again, why? How is it not sustainable - it's a football tactic not a fucking rainforest. In fact isn't tactical stability something we've been looking for for years? Isn't that part of Jose's remit? Why on Earth can't all our age group teams adopt similar tactics in order to ease the progression of young players into the first team?

I would have to 100% agree with this. I think Jose will want us attacking and pressing like his Madrid team did when they won La Liga. This will need a cam who is more creative than Oscar, i.e. Ozil. Maybe this wont work in the Prem but surely he doesn't think we can become the best team in the world with a cam who is used purely for his defensive qualities because in this current system Oscar doesn't offer much attacking options. Only against the smaller clubs, I feel.

Oscar isn't used purely for his defensive qualities. Don't forget that he's still a young player. He's not the finished article yet and is still growing, but he's clearly improving with time.

[Jase 43,479]

I strongly believe that Hazard, Oscar & Willian have worked well as a unit.

They all know how to track back, unlike Mata

Mata as an individual may be more talented than Oscar...but to win games on a consistent basis, your team has to perform well.

This whole thing about Mata doesn't track back or defend is seriously getting old, typical and cliche. Ever since he was dropped, if you like, at the beginning of the season and basically told he's not up to scratch defensively, Mata has worked hard every time he plays in the subsequent games. The only difference and reason why Mourinho has preferred Hazard, Oscar, Willian etc over Mata is because the latter doesn't quite have the same tenacity, aggressiveness and energy level when defending and pressing as well as that pace to counter when the ball is turned over in our advantage.

[lionsden 4,689]

His had 2 poor games in a row, had that been Mata he would have been benched for a month

But but but he tracks back and works his socks off. Isn't that the only important aspect of football. every other aspect like passing well, creating and scoring and so on is mint

[lionsden 4,689]

Here what opposition fans think of the matter. pulled straight from redcafe

Starts with the best post

ekeke said:

Its good he puts his foot in and tries to win the ball but he also needs to have an impact in the final third

Those are average numbers for a number 10 at Chelsea. An average of 36 passes isnt exactly impressive either, its not like hes the heartbeat of your team. So while he has done a very good job defensively, he's been underwhelming offensively. 36 is a couple more than Kagawa averages and he hasn't been influencial enough either and has played plenty of times on the wing. His end product has been more disappointing as well. The point is that while Mourinho obviously loves the fact he will try and pinch the ball and close people down, you're playing as a number 10 for a top club. You need to be producing more offensively than he has in the league. Interestingly, while Oscar has made double the tackles Mata has, an out of form and unconfident Mata has created almost double the chances Oscar has. At the end of the day its no surprise you're just nicking results and largely playing dour football (other than Hazard) if your number 10 is valued for his closing down and defensive work rather than his attacking. Heskey, Kuyt and Valencia are valued for theirs as well and Oscar should be aiming a lot higher than that.

Gerald g wrote:He was anonymous today. I've thought this all season but Mata should be ahead of him in my opinion

B20: I think Ekeke makes a valid point. Mourinho has sold the world a false dilemma with this Oscar vs Mata thing and Oscar being one of your better players only masks the actual fact that he is not as good as Mata has been for you the past two years.

Robbie boy: Mata is the better player, for me, and his productivity is better than Oscar's

That's the general opposition view of oscar vs mata debate. I'm just putting it here for some balance.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

There are a couple of issues I have here and I'm still trying make sense of it, so it might be a bit disjointed. I think there are both pluses & minuses to Oscar's presence in this team. He is extremely vital to our defensive stability and he's a significant factor to why we've been incredibly rock solid recently, but my worry is that Oscar's contributions to our defensive structure might be papering over the cracks. The fact that the team's defensive organization is so dependant on an attacking midfielder is really not something that I think should lauded or celebrated. To me, that doesn't signify a method that's sustainable or something that's a long term solution.

I'm actually very interested to see what the team would look like next season because right now I think Mourinho is just doing whatever he can to get this team competitive in the league again. I suspect we'll see a lot of changes next season and possibly, a change in Oscar's role.

I have to disagree with the bold part. Why would it not be something sustainable? Jose has defined a role for the number 10 position. It's not like we are dependent on the ability of one player and our system would break down if he was injured is having a bad game like we were dependent on Mata last season. Willian have played the exact same role several times already this season to the same success and even KDB did it in preseason. So as long as we can play players like Oscar and Willian in that position who are capable of fulfilling the role, I see no reason why it can't be sustainable and long term.

[The only place to be 11,313]

But but but he tracks back and works his socks off. Isn't that the only important aspect of football. every other aspect like passing well, creating and scoring and so on is mint

He does pass well, he does create and he does score. Not at the rate that Mata did but then Mata had a totally free role under Benitez which is why we looked pretty poor at times.

What has happened is that Hazard has a greater impact on the games now. Maybe he wouldn't have that if Mata was playing also, but Oscar is needed at the moment. Maybe Mata can adapt his game to suit this style but if he can't then maybe you and your friends at the cafe will get a new player to watch.

This whole thing about Mata doesn't track back or defend is seriously getting old, typical and cliche. Ever since he was dropped, if you like, at the beginning of the season and basically told he's not up to scratch defensively, Mata has worked hard every time he plays in the subsequent games. The only difference and reason why Mourinho has preferred Hazard, Oscar, Willian etc over Mata is because the latter doesn't quite have the same tenacity, aggressiveness and energy level when defending and pressing as well as that pace to counter when the ball is turned over in our advantage.

Ultimately he just looks slow and less dynamic than the other options.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

He does pass well, he does create and he does score. Not at the rate that Mata did but then Mata had a totally free role under Benitez which is why we looked pretty poor at times.

What has happened is that Hazard has a greater impact on the games now. Maybe he wouldn't have that if Mata was playing also, but Oscar is needed at the moment. Maybe Mata can adapt his game to suit this style but if he can't then maybe you and your friends at the cafe will get a new player to watch.

Ultimately he just looks slow and less dynamic than the other options.

And that's something people can't get into their heads. If we played with the same freedom, and with a lack of rigidity, Hazard would be playing even better, Oscar would be a world-beater, and Mata would be playing as well as last season. But we'd also probably be about 5th, because we wouldn't be able to cope - stylistically - with the Arsenals, Citys and Liverpools of this league, who can outplay us offensively. Our greatest strength, believe it or not, is our defensive prowess as a unit. That's why we're so damned hard to beat.

[didierforever 7,349]

mata does track back and help defences but he is still a liability while defending. its not something that comes naturally to him. oscar on the other hand is great at hustling. people who are condemning oscar and saying he has had "poor games" should probably watch chelsea more often. pressing the opposition mid and forcing them to go wide is a MAJOR part of our game when we dont have the ball. and it is for almost 50% of the game that we dont have the ball. can mata do that? i dont think so. atleast on the level of oscar. oscar is extremely pivotal for the way we have set up to play.

[Jose M 140]

Oscar is Vital to our shape. He has not had the best last three games but he has been overplayed in the last two seasons. I see Oscar's future in the right of midfield in a 4-3-3 with Matic holding and ramires.

[The only place to be 11,313]

And that's something people can't get into their heads. If we played with the same freedom, and with a lack of rigidity, Hazard would be playing even better, Oscar would be a world-beater, and Mata would be playing as well as last season. But we'd also probably be about 5th, because we wouldn't be able to cope - stylistically - with the Arsenals, Citys and Liverpools of this league, who can outplay us offensively. Our greatest strength, believe it or not, is our defensive prowess as a unit. That's why we're so damned hard to beat.

So many times when Mata was playing over the last couple of seasons our team looked like a defence and attack with very few joins between the two. Now we're much more compact and rather than playing as a back 6 and a front 4, it's a solid unit of 10 players all working together.

That's why it's a misnomer to talk about Oscar tracking back because more than anything it's the pressing that the whole team does that he's integral too. Every player has to do their job otherwise there are gaps for the opposition to exploit and whenever Mata has played gaps just appear (Newcastle away was the worst one). Then when we're in possession he just seems slower than everyone else. There's no dynamism in his play which could be down to not playing but having said that he's never been a Willian or Hazard type with the ball at his feet.

Honestly, if he wasn't already one of our players then I don't think anyone would think his style would suit us. I think we'd benefit more from a more conventional left-footed, right winger like Angel Di Maria or even Hulk.

[pgleo 90]

A lot of our own supporters and fans waiting for Oscar to have a bad game and have a go at him everytime. Oscar having an average game makes him the worst player on the planet while Mata with the same performance will be hailed for trying to cope with Mourinho's style. Also when Oscar has a very good game, people don't give him enough credit. He will probably never get 35 assists and 20 goals a season but he's young and a vital part of our team and certainly doesn't deserve the sticks he's getting.

[Sheva. 5,373]

A lot of our own supporters and fans waiting for Oscar to have a bad game and have a go at him everytime. Oscar having an average game makes him the worst player on the planet while Mata with the same performance will be hailed for trying to cope with Mourinho's style. Also when Oscar has a very good game, people don't give him enough credit. He will probably never get 35 assists and 20 goals a season but he's young and a vital part of our team and certainly doesn't deserve the sticks he's getting.

He's turning into Mikel 2.0

[Jase 43,479]

Ultimately he just looks slow and less dynamic than the other options.

Not disagreeing at all but think a more accurate and perhaps fair description of Mata would be that he isn't the quickest of players and certain less dynamic compared to the othrs.

[Korea 734]

It's not that Mata doesnt track back, its that hes just not good at it...

One thing I realized yesterday though was when Oscar got subbed out for Mikel, Chelsea stop pressing.

Also, after Eto first goal, he went straight to Mourinho and Im pretty sure Mourinho gave him direct instructions to dropped back to help possession, since the brazilian combo wasnt doing a good job at it....

To be fair, Oscar and Willian are both being ask to play defensive roles in the cam position. However, in the future, with proper cms, I think less of the defensive focus/work will be on them and more on the CMs, etc.

[DDA 9,570]

Why? When Barca's game is dependent on every member of the team pressing, they are lauded and rightly so. Why on Earth should this aspect of our game not be celebrated?

Again, why? How is it not sustainable - it's a football tactic not a fucking rainforest. In fact isn't tactical stability something we've been looking for for years? Isn't that part of Jose's remit? Why on Earth can't all our age group teams adopt similar tactics in order to ease the progression of young players into the first team?

Oscar isn't used purely for his defensive qualities. Don't forget that he's still a young player. He's not the finished article yet and is still growing, but he's clearly improving with time.

Why? When Barca's game is dependent on every member of the team pressing, they are lauded and rightly so. Why on Earth should this aspect of our game not be celebrated?

Again, why? How is it not sustainable - it's a football tactic not a fucking rainforest. In fact isn't tactical stability something we've been looking for for years? Isn't that part of Jose's remit? Why on Earth can't all our age group teams adopt similar tactics in order to ease the progression of young players into the first team?

Oscar isn't used purely for his defensive qualities. Don't forget that he's still a young player. He's not the finished article yet and is still growing, but he's clearly improving with time.

That was wrong of me to say thay Oscar iis used purely for his defensive abilities but... Jose is using him at Cam rather than Juan for that very reason. We all know Mata is better on the ball, whereas Oscar is superior off it. So I hope Oscar does improve his passing game to that of the level Juans passing game is. Then we wil have the complete cam.

[Barbara 15,149]

There are a couple of issues I have here and I'm still trying make sense of it, so it might be a bit disjointed. I think there are both pluses & minuses to Oscar's presence in this team. He is extremely vital to our defensive stability and he's a significant factor to why we've been incredibly rock solid recently, but my worry is that Oscar's contributions to our defensive structure might be papering over the cracks. The fact that the team's defensive organization is so dependant on an attacking midfielder is really not something that I think should lauded or celebrated. To me, that doesn't signify a method that's sustainable or something that's a long term solution.

I'm actually very interested to see what the team would look like next season because right now I think Mourinho is just doing whatever he can to get this team competitive in the league again. I suspect we'll see a lot of changes next season and possibly, a change in Oscar's role.

Why? When Barca's game is dependent on every member of the team pressing, they are lauded and rightly so. Why on Earth should this aspect of our game not be celebrated?

Again, why? How is it not sustainable - it's a football tactic not a fucking rainforest. In fact isn't tactical stability something we've been looking for for years? Isn't that part of Jose's remit? Why on Earth can't all our age group teams adopt similar tactics in order to ease the progression of young players into the first team?

Oscar isn't used purely for his defensive qualities. Don't forget that he's still a young player. He's not the finished article yet and is still growing, but he's clearly improving with time.

somehow I agree with both of you (with Dee partially and with TOPTB completely(, even though you seem to disagree with one another

I was watching the match with friends (YAY) and we were talking about Oscar and comparing him to the player in Brazil (not the NT, but at Inter and even Sao Paulo). We also talked about him in the youth NT. I think he's still struggling a bit to find his balance as I told in my initial post.

He will never be as creative as Mata and he doesn't have such a powerful, unpredictable, quality pass, but he can do better offensively and I'm sure with time he will. He's already better this season in that aspect than last season, I think from next season on we'll really see him on his full potential (not reaching his ceiling, but playing at his best possible level, without the struggles, and then he'll continue to grow as a player).

I feel he offers tactically (and that's not only defensively) a lot. I was commentating with my friends at the pub that at mark 80+ we just didn't hold the ball and wasted time. With Oscar in the team we do that. He knows (like Lamps also knows and does) that 10-15 minutes to the end of the match when you have 2 goals difference, it's time to waste time with the ball and try not to attack as risky as earlier in the match. This has nothing with defensiveness and I'm not saying Mata wouldn't do the same, I'm talking about Oscar alone. He reads well the game, the moments of the match and he normally goes for what we need. He just need to be sharper and more incisive more consistently. I still think it's just that his game isn't as mature yet as his attitude (he's still only 22, recently turned btw) and a bit of struggle to the style of English football. I think the style demands a lot more than he - or any Brazilian - is used too. So while he tries to adapt to the tactics the manager has, to help his mates in the pitch, to show his style and quality, he simply can't play his best yet because he's still finding his place and his feet. This boy was out of his mind at the Brazil Youth NT and for a while at Inter (and even some moments at Sao Paulo). I expect him to really blossom from next season on. Oscar will never be a Hazard or a Mata offensively, but I'm positive he can (and will) be much more than he's showing.

My point at the end of the day was that Mourinho finally found his team, and for those players to be benched now they'll have to have a few really bad matches in a row. Oscar didn't have really bad matches in a row. He's had a couple of quiet matches, but still working his socks and giving us some stability. I don't see why Mourinho would drop any of his starting 11 (maybe except Luiz who's playing out of position, especially with Matic around) if they have a couple of bad (or quiet) matches. People were screaming and barking at Mourinho in his thread last month to give starting eleven stability, saying one of our problems were the constant rotating. Now that he finally has his 11 players, people want them to be dropped because of a pair of unimpressive (still not bad imo) matches... It's hard to understand this reasoning.

[zolayes 14,489]

barb ... please remember Oscar is still VERY young ,,,actually to me Giggs is young .. IMO Oscar is unbeliablly mature in his play /

Barring injury he is going to be one of the SPECIAL ones .. and when Luiz matures he will be as well ..

counting Oscar ,,, Luiz ,, Hazard and Willian ,,, OMG

[Barbara 15,149]

barb ... please remember Oscar is still VERY young ,,,actually to me Giggs is young .. IMO Oscar is unbeliablly mature in his play /

Barring injury he is going to be one of the SPECIAL ones .. and when Luiz matures he will be as well ..

counting Oscar ,,, Luiz ,, Hazard and Willian ,,, OMG

Oh, Ron, I think he's already mature in many aspects, but his game can still mature more. That's what I meant. The boy behaves like a man all the time, his seriousness, his dedication, his discipline and the way he simply steps up, it's amazing. I just meant the technical aspect. He's still at least half-way in his development curve, so there's a lot for his game to mature. I'll edit my previous post to make it clear I meant his game, not him.