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well then maybe I don't read those threads enough because Oscar has been getting stick since he's here and even when Mata was displaced and he was playing well there were people - Mata widows as I call them - crying rivers about him displacing Mata and how that was unacceptable or foolish by Mourinho. Of course, others were praising him, but Oscar - like Hazard - has always been criticized.

I get that the most talented prayers hold more expectations from the fans, but read this topic from start (I did it when I joined, as well as Hazard's). He's always been questioned for one reason or another. Although everyone else is. It's like Choulo quoted Lamps, a player is as good as his latest match. Which means only Azplicueta is exempted from criticism I suppose.

Either way, he should perform better - I think that most of us agree with.

I honestly don't know how TC has reacted to his 13-14 season, I didn't browse at all from September onwards till the Liverpool game in late April. But from what I read on twitter and on the comment sections of various newspapers, he was nearly always immune from criticism, even in the dark days from January onwards. For the record, I think that 'you're only as good as your last game/fans only remember your previous game' talk is bollocks; it's too simplistic and most people are more intelligent than to truly believe that.

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In 2012 I predicted he would become a better player than Eden Hazard. With the help of my friends and family I have since been able to overcome my crack addiction

Hazard is Hazard, Oscar is Oscar and Mata is Mata.

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well then maybe I don't read those threads enough because Oscar has been getting stick since he's here and even when Mata was displaced and he was playing well there were people - Mata widows as I call them - crying rivers about him displacing Mata and how that was unacceptable or foolish by Mourinho. Of course, others were praising him, but Oscar - like Hazard - has always been criticized.

I get that the most talented prayers hold more expectations from the fans, but read this topic from start (I did it when I joined, as well as Hazard's). He's always been questioned for one reason or another. Although everyone else is. It's like Choulo quoted Lamps, a player is as good as his latest match. Which means only Azplicueta is exempted from criticism I suppose.

Either way, he should perform better - I think that most of us agree with.

Well I'm not sure exactly who falls into this category of 'Mata widows' but the ironic thing is that many of the people who right from the very start said that Oscar can't play the no. 10 role as well as Mata is able to are probably the ones who might be more lenient with Oscar - with the exception of lionsden. His weaknesses have been apparent to us for a while now and we've learned to accept him in spite of those limitations. But it's interesting, because If you actually look at the members who are being overly harsh with Oscar, those were the same people who so adamantly defended him when he was in form, when he was popping in the goals and when he was the 'shinny new thing' but now that he's no longer in form they're ready to just cast him aside without a moment's hesitation.

So these 'Mata widows' - as you call them - are probably the ones (at least in my view) who have been and are being the more rational on the subject of Oscar. Back in August, September....Oscar wasn't as fantastic as some made him out to be but at the same time, he hasn't suddenly become this terrible footballer as some are now making him out to be.

Just my two cents.

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Well I'm not sure exactly who falls into this category of 'Mata widows' but the ironic thing is that many of the people who right from the very start said that Oscar can't play the no. 10 role as well as Mata is able to are probably the ones who might be more lenient with Oscar - with the exception of lionsden. His weaknesses have been apparent to us for a while now and we've learned to accept him in spite of those limitations. But it's interesting, because If you actually look at the members who are being overly harsh with Oscar, those were the same people who so adamantly defended him when he was in form, when he was popping in the goals and when he was the 'shinny new thing' but now that he's no longer in form they're ready to just cast him aside without a moment's hesitation.

So these 'Mata widows' - as you call them - are probably the ones (at least in my view) who have been and are being the more rational on the subject of Oscar. Back in August, September....Oscar wasn't as fantastic as some made him out to be but at the same time, he hasn't suddenly become this terrible footballer as some are now making him out to be.

Just my two cents.

I didn't mean now, I meant back then, I was illustrating that even when he was having his best moment for us, being the player that carried us for a couple of moments, people were criticizing him and Mourinho because Mata should have a captive place in the team, after all he was the player of the season two times in a row.

That's why I said yesterday that the expectations fans have from a #10 and Mourinho are different and that's what creates some complaints.

Mourinho may replace Oscar in the #10, but unless we have the best #10 in the world, and Hazard's no where in the team, unless Eden becomes the best #10 in the world, he won't allow a magician like Mata that offers amazing attacking tools and only that.

He talked about it many times, he's said with all words that Oscar (the first half of the season Oscar) had all he wishes in a #10. If he's replacing Oscar because Oscar can't carry on, it'll be by a Oscar 2.0, unless he changes completely his mind and that imo, includes letting go of Hazard or moving Hazard to #10. Mourinho isn't willing to have two defensive-free or defensive-inapt attackers in his team and he's willing to give as much freedom as possible to Hazard - who is his star.

That was the reasoning then, that might continue to be the reasoning now and I meant back then Mata widows were throwing all stones at Mourinho and Oscar because they couldn't accept the choice made by the manager. I didn't mean anything about Mata widows now, especially because it's been almost a year since he was displaced, over six months he was sold, nobody mourns so long, do they?

My point with Madmax is that Oscar has always been criticized. Some times more intensely, some times less intensely. It seems fair for him to be criticized now, more than fair actually, but he's always been regardless of the situation and I know that because I read the whole topic when I joined. Hazard has been spared lately (not in the WC it seems), but his first season here was also marked by a lot of constant criticism. It's a forum, people speak their minds, and are quickly to jump to whatever conclusion they want. In times of football games of all kinds and teams streaming money, people want their clubs to be FIFA or Football Manager. If a player doesn't have all that set of skills, or doesn't produce a constant development and progress, then there's something wrong. I've been a football fan for nearly 30 years. I've been on internet talking about it for 15. It's not something that only happens here, but everywhere. People aren't satisfied, they just aren't, and as some people keep saying here, everyone is brave (and smart, and basically a football PhD) behind their computer screens. It didn't use to be like that and I worry if that won't be transfered to the fans that go to matches.

The amount of stick Hazard, Oscar, Schurrle, Salah (without even touching a ball for us) got here is unbelievable. Check Schurrle's thread from november-february/march - don't remember exactly when he came back to the team after working on his body. It never changes. While some criticism for bad form and performance is more than normal and natural, people get carried away too easily and dismiss and write off players with the speed of their blinks - of course not everyone does it, but a lot of people do. Also Messi and Ronaldo created this idea that players at age 23 should already be world class players, owning the world. It's annoying. There's no patience, there's no maturity, there's no sense assessing players these days. Fast food generation even for football players, I want the best and I want it now. If you aren't the best, you'll be replaced in 5 seconds.

I even agree in Oscar's case, 5 months of bad form is worrying and should be addressed more seriously than a short stretch of bad games, but at least don't write a 22yo career's off as if he's a lost case. He may turn out to be a flop, nobody here can say that now. It's just like the Diego Costa thread today where I read a poster PROMISING US that Costa would fail here. WTF is this shit? So now people can make promises about a player's future, decide who are going to become greats and who won't, where they should end up. A lot of future tellers, and like someone also asked in Costa's thread, can I have the lottery numbers in Brazil please? Or to know where some of my decisions will take me in 10 years from now? Thanks in advance (and that's not towards you).

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Are the expectations that some fans have of the no. 10 truly at odds with Mourinho's though? Don't know about that. I don't think so. If that were the case then Mourinho wouldn't have approved the Fabregas signing. So that he brought in Cesc (in my view at least) shows that he clearly recognizes the value of the sort of playmaking qualities typically associated with no. 10s i.e creativity, vision, incisive passing etc.

What I do think is that the priorities at the beginning of the season were different than the priorities now. Mourinho was taking over a team that hadn't been competitive in the league since Carlo left, a team that had a shaky defensive foundation, didn't have a pressing structure in place and only just sneaked to 3rd place. So some sacrifices had to be made in order to move the team forward. At that particular time it made sense to have a more all around player in the no.10 because that's what was needed. The thing about Mourinho is that he's a very reactive coach. It's one of his best qualities. He has a knack of quickly adapting to situations. Look at how he used Azpi to turn a position that was leaving us a bit exposed into a position of real strength (defensively). So that he prioritized Oscar's qualities in the no. 10 over Mata's qualities doesn't necessarily indicate anything about the sort of abilities he prefers his no.10 to have. I could be wrong but that's my sense.

As for your point about the criticisms people make about Hazard, Oscar, Schurrle etc. 100% agree with this. The criticisms don't bother me as much, it's more that people easily write off players and it's all the more upsetting when it's a young player whose full potential hasn't even been realized. But the way some people speak of these players, it's as if they have a crystal ball or something.

you definitely have a point in this whole second paragraph - something I haven't come to think yet. It was so clear for me that he had to interrupt his plans in December and adopt a more defensive and passive approach because we couldn't deliver what he wanted, that I've never thought maybe that was his provisional plan (the first tactics, up to december). Maybe his plans were to give some stability and go from there. You may be right about that and I hope we start producing a more polished football.

As for Cesc, I don't know where Mourinho wants to play him. He's something between Oscar and Mata both ways: defensively and offensively. He's not as creative or has an amazing vision as Mata, but he's way better than Oscar on both. He's not completely inapt defending as Mata, but he works no closer as hard as Oscar defending and isn't as good tackling. He may be an answer, but I'm still holding hope we'll play a 4-3-3 with both Cesc and Oscar in the midfield. They can alternate a lot there and show their best skills and assets, making up for each other's shortcomings. It could be Cesc + Willian too. I'm a bit obsessed with us playing a 4-3-3 instead of the boring, predictable and repetitive 4-2-3-1, but definitely Cesc can be played as #10 as well.

Great points all around.

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Mate, I'm a 'big fan' of yours around here, even nominated you for the British member of the year, but you've been a bit different since the WC started. First of all, I didn't mean you wanted him to fail, second of all, why should anyone give a fuck? I'm not even sure *I* would give a fuck. I care about Chelsea first and foremost. I've defended David Luiz even more fiercely around here and the moment he was gone I couldn't even wish him good luck for real because I don't like PSG. I move on from players as quick as I click the link of the club's announcement of their departure except in cases like Frank Lampard or Javier Zanetti - who are indeed club legends. That's the kind of thing I can't get over, but Oscar? As much as I love the kid, if he doesn't live up his potential my only sorrow will be not having made as much money with him as we could have if we take too long to sell and don't capitalize.

I don't get your sudden change tbh, and that's not only about Oscar - although it's somewhat very noticeable about him. When the season ended you didn't say half of the bad things you've said during the WC and really, I'm sure you're smart enough to know a WC shouldn't be taken into consideration in a player's career. If that's the case we need to sign new AMs asap because except Schurrle, Hazard, Oscar, Willian were far from impressive. You know WC form isn't to be taken into context. I don't need - or even want - to know why you changed so much, I just feel about it. Of course, I still respect your opinion - your entitled to have one - but something seemed to have hit a nerve with you or something. Hope you're back to what I consider normal soon - even when people were dismissing you for the way you approached English players or even the foreign fans, I didn't think it was a bad thing, just you being proud of your people or wanting to be. Nothing wrong with that - but I can't recognize you lately.

Too much talking about me, rather than the points I've raised which is amazing considering the length of your post. You talk about his start to the season being enough to justify him not getting stick but how many games did he actually play well in during that time? 8? 9 maybe? After that there's what, the Southampton match, Arsenal at home, Stoke and maybe Newcastle. That's a good performance every 4 or 5 matches from a player who has been here for two years and put in over 100 appearances.

And I actually defended him a lot of the time. I said that selling Mata was the right thing (still believe that) and that we shouldn't sell Oscar when the PSG rumours were abound but he does absolutely nothing to defend himself much of the time. He's looking more and more hesitant when in possession of the ball. Look at his dribbling technique recently compared to someone like James, Hazard, Neymar, Alexis Sanchez etc. I'm starting to have grave reservations about whether he can actually play at number 10 for a top team. His future may lie deeper in midfield as a tempo setter a la Modric rather than the star of the side.

Now I can make an argument to say that all may not be that dire, particularly in light of the performances of players like Gotze and Isco last season, but the simple fact is that in his second season in the Premier League he didn't just stagnate....he regressed. Whilst Hazard actually stepped up and improved as the season wore on, Oscar got worse.

As for the World Cup, I don't think it's a great barometer of a player's level of quality but the argument put forward to defend Oscar was that he was saving himself or focusing on this tournament. It's therefore annoying when he's bang average for most of it.

Finally, I have no idea why you decided to ignore discussing Oscar and spend that post talking about me. I don't make posts in response to you personal so why you felt the need to do that I don't know but if you want to continue doing that then I'm more than happy to offer more ad hominem responses to you.

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This is the way I see it. How many top teams in the world would Oscar get into as a starter more so as an attacking midfielder?. Now he could go on to have a Muller like development, unlikely but anything is possible. however right now he's simply not good enough to be a starter nevermind part of the team's core considering our huge ambition.

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Too much talking about me, rather than the points I've raised which is amazing considering the length of your post. You talk about his start to the season being enough to justify him not getting stick but how many games did he actually play well in during that time? 8? 9 maybe? After that there's what, the Southampton match, Arsenal at home, Stoke and maybe Newcastle. That's a good performance every 4 or 5 matches from a player who has been here for two years and put in over 100 appearances.

And I actually defended him a lot of the time. I said that selling Mata was the right thing (still believe that) and that we shouldn't sell Oscar when the PSG rumours were abound but he does absolutely nothing to defend himself much of the time. He's looking more and more hesitant when in possession of the ball. Look at his dribbling technique recently compared to someone like James, Hazard, Neymar, Alexis Sanchez etc. I'm starting to have grave reservations about whether he can actually play at number 10 for a top team. His future may lie deeper in midfield as a tempo setter a la Modric rather than the star of the side.

Now I can make an argument to say that all may not be that dire, particularly in light of the performances of players like Gotze and Isco last season, but the simple fact is that in his second season in the Premier League he didn't just stagnate....he regressed. Whilst Hazard actually stepped up and improved as the season wore on, Oscar got worse.

As for the World Cup, I don't think it's a great barometer of a player's level of quality but the argument put forward to defend Oscar was that he was saving himself or focusing on this tournament. It's therefore annoying when he's bang average for most of it.

Finally, I have no idea why you decided to ignore discussing Oscar and spend that post talking about me. I don't make posts in response to you personal so why you felt the need to do that I don't know but if you want to continue doing that then I'm more than happy to offer more ad hominem responses to you.

haven't we discussed everything there is about Oscar?

I'm not saying he shouldn't get stick, I think I've said he deserves it in a lot of my posts here. It's the exaggeration I don't agree with. If you and are part of the bandwagon. Go your merry way with them then. We'll settle to agree to disagree. When I've had more than 5 posts in the last pages saying exactly what I think is fair criticism and what I think it isn't, I don't need to repeat myself again. Or do you want me to become lionsden in reverse? Coming here everyday - more than once sometimes - to say the same thing over and over? I don't feel the need to become a broken record. I've already said a lot more about it than was necessary, I don't want to say the same things again. I think he carried the team for a few months. Goals, assists, tackles, good performances when nobody else was stepping up in our attack. You want to reduce it to 2 matches, to 10 or to 20, it's up to you, it's your perception. Let's write the boy off completely, decide on the rest of his career because of 5 tough months for him and him being part of an inept, clueless, nonexistent even tactical system in a WC where he was sacrificed by a coward manager.

I agree with the bold part. And most of the following two paragraphs.

As for your posts, I'm just giving my opinion on them. When you expose your opinion in a forum, people can have an opinion on them. Didn't expect a different reaction. Brazil will hopefully be forgotten soon. Cheers, mate.

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Well I respect the fact all fans have different opinions. Even though I don't agree with those saying Oscar should be sold, that is their opinion and I won't argue with that.

Personally, I believe in Oscar and believe he can become one of the best in the world in the next few years under Mourinho.

As Jose said, he was being played out of position for Brazil and being burdened with defensive duties.

Even then, he put in an amazing performance vs Croatia in the opening game, so we can see he has the skills and potential. He just needs to work on his consistency.

I hope he plays in the third place playoff tomorrow, and scores a goal or two. Although I don't think the Brazil players will ever get over not winning the World Cup this year, I would hope him scoring tomorrow would make him feel a bit better about himself, as it was upsetting seeing him so devastated after the semi final.

And then I hope he gets a bit of a longer summer break, comes back motivated and ready for next season, helps us win a trophy and then goes into next year's Copa America with Brazil and helps them win that.

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I followed this thread with half an eye, and im a bit sad at all the negativity around here. I guess it is just a side-effect of not having anything to discuss aside the WC.

But still, here are my thoughts: The kid certainly has the talent, but he will never be as creative as Mata. But it's his ability to track back, tackle, press etc.that will more than make up for his lack of creativity in the purest sense. The signing of Cesc will relieve alot of pressure from the kid, with both of them in the game they will most likely share creative and defensive roles. I don't think there is a better midfield in the PL when Cesc, Oscar and Matic are all playing.

Anyway, i still got some reservations. Imo José needs to tinker with the team at the beginning of the season, seeïng that our first few fixtures are quite easy we can easily give Oscar some added rest and slowly easy him into the team like we did with Willian last season. The lad needs it (because of bad form, and average WC). In the meantime Willian and Cesc can easily step into his role at the beginning, wich allows us also to give André a run into the team. This way we can get Oscar back into top form at around october/november, whilst also giving other players a chance to grow and be valuable when we will need them the most (as a backup or starting role).

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Guys, it seems that all our brazilian players are insanely poor in terms of stability in their play and decision making.

I don't think it's a coincidence and to be honest i now see why Mou didn't have too much faith in most of them last year.

Oscar needs a lot of improvement and i doubt he is that willing to work hard to this direction.

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I think having a good match today was one of the positive answers we could have.

I didn't know if he'd be able to recover mentally from the 1x7, but it seemed like he put it behind him and tried to play his best. It's a big blow in a player's confidence to play in your house, in a WC like that and he's young - it's unpredictable how the players deal with it, but it seems like he dealt well at first. Let's see how he comes back to us.

If Oscar can be more consistent he's going to be a great player for us, so I'll keep holding onto hope for as long as I can, but I think he has to give more solid answers this season.

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