David Luiz

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Seems you have forgotten Luiz's ability completely just because he's been off form and Cahill has been in the form of his life. That's the only reason Luiz isn't playing because Cahill getting dropped would make no sense right now as he doesn't deserve it.

Can we trust Luiz against a team against Liverpool? Tell me, when was the last time Luiz made a mistake in a big game? And how many mistakes has he made in big games in general... You won't find many at all.

I haven't forgotten his ability. In fact I've seen it written here a few times that 'we knew what we were signing when we bought Luiz' and 'he is who he is' or words to that effect. I'm not talking about his form. I'm talking about who David Luiz is as a player and that's pretty much the same guy he was at 23.

The last time he made a major mistake in a big game off the top of my head was against Cardiff at home. He also had a poor game away to Newcastle.

Either way, 2 games at CB since the start of November tells it's own tale.

[The Skipper 20,593]

I haven't forgotten his ability. In fact I've seen it written here a few times that 'we knew what we were signing when we bought Luiz' and 'he is who he is' or words to that effect. I'm not talking about his form. I'm talking about who David Luiz is as a player and that's pretty much the same guy he was at 23.

The last time he made a major mistake in a big game off the top of my head was against Cardiff at home. He also had a poor game away to Newcastle.

Either way, 2 games at CB since the start of November tells it's own tale.

No he isn't the same guy... You're acting like Luiz has not changed whatsoever which is simply untrue. He's not the same sort of defender anymore - that enthusiasm when he first came has pretty much been beaten out of him. He was maturing as a player up until the very end of last season and if he continued that sort of form he'd be our number 1 CB but obviously due to international duties, injuries, a lack of pre season, and Gary Cahill taking his chance he hasn't been able to play as often and has stalled. It's really that simple.

Cardiff at home isn't a big game... I thought you were on about Liverpool calibre opponents.

And the tale is pretty simple. Gary Cahill is in the form of his life and has had solid game after solid game for a while now, it would be extremely harsh and hypocritical of Mourinho to drop him when Luiz isn't at top form either.

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No he isn't the same guy... You're acting like Luiz has not changed whatsoever which is simply untrue. He's not the same sort of defender anymore - that enthusiasm when he first came has pretty much been beaten out of him. He was maturing as a player up until the very end of last season and if he continued that sort of form he'd be our number 1 CB but obviously due to international duties, injuries, a lack of pre season, and Gary Cahill taking his chance he hasn't been able to play as often and has stalled. It's really that simple.

He hasn't stalled. This is just his ups and downs and the only progress I've seen is that he's more willing to hack the ball clear, almost completely without thought at times.

Cardiff at home isn't a big game... I thought you were on about Liverpool calibre opponents.

Exactly the type of thinking I hate in David Luiz.

Are the prices any cheaper? Are the three points any less 'three pointy'? Do they not count in the league?

At the start of that day, David Luiz is given the chance to wear the Blue of Chelsea for the day. The same Blue that hundreds have represented with honour and millions around the world support. Saying it isn't a big game is exactly the problem David Luiz has in my opinion.

And the tale is pretty simple. Gary Cahill is in the form of his life and has had solid game after solid game for a while now, it would be extremely harsh and hypocritical of Mourinho to drop him when Luiz isn't at top form either.

Now the myth that Gary Cahill has channelled Franco Baresi for the last three months. He hasn't. He's just been fairly solid and not done anything stupid.

[robsblubot 3,205]

He hasn't stalled. This is just his ups and downs and the only progress I've seen is that he's more willing to hack the ball clear, almost completely without thought at times.

Exactly the type of thinking I hate in David Luiz.

Are the prices any cheaper? Are the three points any less 'three pointy'? Do they not count in the league?

At the start of that day, David Luiz is given the chance to wear the Blue of Chelsea for the day. The same Blue that hundreds have represented with honour and millions around the world support. Saying it isn't a big game is exactly the problem David Luiz has in my opinion.

Now the myth that Gary Cahill has channelled Franco Baresi for the last three months. He hasn't. He's just been fairly solid and not done anything stupid.

Gotta take risks to win games esp when the opponent sits back. What u 'hate' about luiz is just his way of trying to help unlock a tight defense. Even as a cb he has the ability to do just that and i reckon managers encourage that when appropriate - against a weak opponent at home. We just saw what happens when we don't take risks when we dropped points against west ham at home.

It all boils down to personal preferences. To me a defender that 'doesn't do anything stupid' May or May not be good enough. For me it's about what he brings when we face the toughest of opponents.

Cahill did a poor job handling skillful FWs a many times before - ppl May gave forgotten that too.

Staying with English defenders I believe Phil jones will be twice the defender Cahill is and Smalling might become a better defender too, unfortunately.

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Gotta take risks to win games esp when the opponent sits back. What u 'hate' about luiz is just his way of trying to help unlock a tight defense. Even as a cb he has the ability to do just that and i reckon managers encourage that when appropriate - against a weak opponent at home. We just saw what happens when we don't take risks when we dropped points against west ham at home.

Don't take risks?? We created 39 chances against West Ham and got behind their first bank almost at will. Plus I've never looked at Cahill and Terry and wanted them to help unlock a tight defence. That's the job of the 8 players in front of them.

It all boils down to personal preferences. To me a defender that 'doesn't do anything stupid' May or May not be good enough. For me it's about what he brings when we face the toughest of opponents.

We've beaten Man City, Man United and Liverpool at home without him. If the centre-halves keep it tight then we're always in with a shout.

Cahill did a poor job handling skillful FWs a many times before - ppl May gave forgotten that too.

Staying with English defenders I believe Phil jones will be twice the defender Cahill is and Smalling might become a better defender too, unfortunately.

Which skilful forwards are you talking about? That's the thing with skilful forwards though....they're skilful.

Phil Jones might yet live up to his potential, but I'm not sure what this has got to do with anything in this thread.

[robsblubot 3,205]

Don't take risks?? We created 39 chances against West Ham and got behind their first bank almost at will. Plus I've never looked at Cahill and Terry and wanted them to help unlock a tight defence. That's the job of the 8 players in front of them.

We've beaten Man City, Man United and Liverpool at home without him. If the centre-halves keep it tight then we're always in with a shout.

Which skilful forwards are you talking about? That's the thing with skilful forwards though....they're skilful.

Phil Jones might yet live up to his potential, but I'm not sure what this has got to do with anything in this thread.

It's not about the number of chances but their quality. The fact is we did not produce enough quality chances we we didn't score - opinions aside.

From top of my had remember Corinthians Guerrero taking him to dance. Aguero skipping past him as if he weren't there. Even mediocre Defoe beat him. So yes I see vast improvement in Cahill this season.

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It's not about the number of chances but their quality. The fact is we did not produce enough quality chances we we didn't score - opinions aside.

Lampard. 12 yards out. Centre of goal.

If you're not scoring those goals then it's just not your day.

[The Skipper 20,593]

He hasn't stalled. This is just his ups and downs and the only progress I've seen is that he's more willing to hack the ball clear, almost completely without thought at times.

Seriously? So easy for you to completely forget that he was really good defensively at the end of last season because he isn't having a good time this season. Do you think he's not progressed at all as a player (taking away this season so far)? Because that is a ridiculous notion to make IMO.

Are the prices any cheaper? Are the three points any less 'three pointy'? Do they not count in the league?

At the start of that day, David Luiz is given the chance to wear the Blue of Chelsea for the day. The same Blue that hundreds have represented with honour and millions around the world support. Saying it isn't a big game is exactly the problem David Luiz has in my opinion.

I wasn't saying that - I thought you suggested that Luiz doesn't play well in the massive games which isn't true. I wasn't talking about his mentality in the smaller games. Apart from this season, his mentality in smaller games have been great, he was often one of the players that tried to step up when things weren't going our way, and it seems like you're completely forgetting that because he hasn't been the best this season.

Now the myth that Gary Cahill has channelled Franco Baresi for the last three months. He hasn't. He's just been fairly solid and not done anything stupid.

So this hasn't been Cahill's most consistent form in a Chelsea shirt?

[robsblubot 3,205]

Lampard. 12 yards out. Centre of goal.

If you're not scoring those goals then it's just not your day.

Well, other types of teams and setup appear to have more good days (at scoring goals). Is it an accident Arsenal scores a lot of goals?

Sorry but you are not making much sense now. Are you saying that if we had 10 chances like the one you described (clear cut) we wouldn't have had a better chance of scoring and winning the game? Are you saying that Mourinho couldn't possibly have picked a more attacking minded starting lineup? We started with Mikel?! He cannot do long balls and has zero assist in his PL career!

So, David being a better passer on the ball (and dribbler) could not possibly have added a bit more to our attacking? Regardless of what you think of him as a defender.

If he is what you think he is, an overall poor player, has the world gone mad? Is Brazil mad? Is the transfer market mad? How come Barcelona made a 21M bid for him last summer and CHelsea turned it down? Why is he so valuable if he is so poor? Do you and others here know something the *professionals* don't? I don't remember hearing about any interest for cahill - much less actual bids.

Perhaps it's just down to personal preferences.

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Seriously? So easy for you to completely forget that he was really good defensively at the end of last season because he isn't having a good time this season. Do you think he's not progressed at all as a player (taking away this season so far)? Because that is a ridiculous notion to make IMO.

I think he's learnt to be a bit more decisive when clearing the ball and that's about it. I still think he's immature at times and does the stupidest things now and then.

I wasn't saying that - I thought you suggested that Luiz doesn't play well in the massive games which isn't true. I wasn't talking about his mentality in the smaller games. Apart from this season, his mentality in smaller games have been great, he was often one of the players that tried to step up when things weren't going our way, and it seems like you're completely forgetting that because he hasn't been the best this season.

Again, big games and small games.

Every game is a massive game and this season he's thrown in some of his worst displays in my opinion.

So this hasn't been Cahill's most consistent form in a Chelsea shirt?

I don't see much difference in his individual performances, just the improvement that comes with being in a much more defensively sound system. He doesn't let you down.

Well, other types of teams and setup appear to have more good days (at scoring goals). Is it an accident Arsenal scores a lot of goals?

2 more in the league than us.

Sorry but you are not making much sense now. Are you saying that if we had 10 chances like the one you described (clear cut) we wouldn't have had a better chance of scoring and winning the game? Are you saying that Mourinho couldn't possibly have picked a more attacking minded starting lineup? We started with Mikel?! He cannot do long balls and has zero assist in his PL career!

I wouldn't have started Mikel. Defence would've stayed exactly the same though.

So, David being a better passer on the ball (and dribbler) could not possibly have added a bit more to our attacking? Regardless of what you think of him as a defender.

Possibly. But then you've got Cahill's presence at set-pieces that you'd lose out on. Swings and roundabouts.

If he is what you think he is, an overall poor player, has the world gone mad? Is Brazil mad? Is the transfer market mad? How come Barcelona made a 21M bid for him last summer and CHelsea turned it down? Why is he so valuable if he is so poor? Do you and others here know something the *professionals* don't? I don't remember hearing about any interest for cahill - much less actual bids.

He's made 2 league appearances in defence since November. Barca want different things from their defenders than Jose does.

The argument that the number of bids should determine who is better is remarkably facile. No official bids were lodged for Phil Jones but that doesn't mean he doesn't have massive potential.

Perhaps it's just down to personal preferences.

It absolutely is.

[AswinR 96]

once CL resumes he will be back in the team and also betting he will play in fa cup against mancity...we have only 4 CB's ... after next week brace yourself for truck load of games and we need this quality depth in squad then!! but i think this is the end of luiz in a blue shirt...next season he will go to barca(they are kinda desperate for one!!)

and zouma is really good...he went against ibra and cavani and game on top most of the times...that says a lot!!

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I think he's learnt to be a bit more decisive when clearing the ball and that's about it. I still think he's immature at times and does the stupidest things now and then.

Again, big games and small games.

Every game is a massive game and this season he's thrown in some of his worst displays in my opinion.

I don't see much difference in his individual performances, just the improvement that comes with being in a much more defensively sound system. He doesn't let you down.

2 more in the league than us.

I wouldn't have started Mikel. Defence would've stayed exactly the same though.

What if we had a defensively better player than Mike, like Makelele, and started with him and David Luiz in defense? Isn't it the same? I mean movement wise? When David moves forward the DM moves in defense. Now if your point is that we don't have that player... well maybe not. Mikel is certainly not him.

Possibly. But then you've got Cahill's presence at set-pieces that you'd lose out on. Swings and roundabouts.

He's made 2 league appearances in defence since November. Barca want different things from their defenders than Jose does.

The argument that the number of bids should determine who is better is remarkably facile. No official bids were lodged for Phil Jones but that doesn't mean he doesn't have massive potential.

It absolutely is.

Fair enough - City then.

Well, player valuation happens to be the most tangible fact we can use around here. Esp considering football is a team sport and 11 play (10 really but you get the point). The influence of a single player in football is less than say in Basketball or hockey.

"Barca want different things from their defenders than Jose does."

Completely agree, but it's not just Barcelona, it's Bayern too. Teams going for possession dominance seem to think DL would suit them perfectly. It's all down to strategy and tactics, but if you don't look there you can't possibly explain DL valuation.

BTW, Lucio at Inter (and under Jose) was very similar to Luiz.

Anyway, we might as well be discussing the wrong player here when comparing DL to Cahill, because my impression was that Chelsea got Cahill to eventually replace Terry. The surprising fact has been Terry's superb form of late (no injuries either).

BTW, I'm originally from the south of Brazil with a lot of German (my ancestors migrated in 1890 if someone wonders... ) and Italian colonization and my fav team there was serie A Gremio. Gremio are known to be a pragmatic side employing no nonsense defenders, etc. They've won a lot in the 90s with Scolari as manager. They just could not beat Ajax who played total dutch football with lots of possession. The game ended 0x0 in Japan for the WCC, but Ajax had all the possession and opportunities. Just to say I'm not completely against the pragmatic style, esp in certain areas of the pitch.

However, the dominant sides of today are more like the Ajax of the 90s. Amusing fact: United's Van der Sar was Ajax's goal keeper back then!

[Svita 10 186]

Fu.king boss in midfield today!

[Gilvorak 3,734]

He had a nightmare 30 minutes or so but as soon as Ivanovic scored he was outstanding throughout. Fair play to Luiz.

[duo11bluecl 207]

Maybe he still has a future at Chelsea based on performances like tonight.

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Midfielder.

[GodZola 630]

Some of us have maintained his future is in midfield, José trust's him in all the big games says it all......

Magnificent performance, him and Matic were simply superb, Toure barely got a kick.

[YouNameIt 1,511]

He had a nightmare 30 minutes or so but as soon as Ivanovic scored he was outstanding throughout. Fair play to Luiz.

Im not sure your definition of the word nightmare matches 99% of the people's on this planet.