Politics & Stuff

[Fernando 6,374]

1 minute ago, Vesper said:

as usually with you religion types

you are playing semantic games

you are leaving out half of the construct

all good and all powerful

please do not don't bad faith (pardon the pun, roflmaooo) post with me

 

A short video about that question that you asked. 

 

 

[Vesper 27,281]

13 minutes ago, Atomiswave said:

Your not a believer I assume Vesper huh? If not its totally fine....we all have our views.

I am an atheist

it should be obvious from my entire time here, from the myriad numbers of posts I have made

and btw

I utterly reject the framing

Quote

Your not a believer 

as I believe in many things

I just do not believe in the concept of god or gods

[Atomiswave 6,072]

3 minutes ago, Vesper said:

I am an atheist

it should be obvious from my entire time here, from the myriad numbers of posts I have made

and btw

I utterly reject the framing

as I believe in many things

I just do not believe in the concept of god or gods

Hey its fine by me Vesper, we all have a choice. I respect yours as I do with anyone else. It does not make you more or less of a person. Its all good.

[Vesper 27,281]

2 hours ago, Fernando said:

A short video about that question that you asked. 

 

 

pure sophistry again by the bloke (granted he is very clever and well spoken)

he introduces the 'moral law' (and thus a moral law giver) as the reason for the concept of good and evil

BUT

the entire concept of good and evil is a construct (I assume you have read Nietzsche, etc etc etc)

and I am ONLY using the god believers OWN construct to show that IT and it alone is logically invalid

 

but nice try, you deffo gets points for tossing up a decent video that I could so see persuading people who lack decent critical thinking and logical analysis skills (which is 95%+ of the population in many areas, especially in septic land)

 

cheers

[Fernando 6,374]

6 minutes ago, Vesper said:

pure sophistry again by the bloke (granted he is very clever and well spoken)

he introduces the 'moral law' (and thus a moral law giver) as the reason for the concept of good and evil

BUT

the entire concept of good and evil is a construct (I assume you have read Nietzsche, etc etc etc)

and I am ONLY using the god believers OWN construct to show that IT and it alone is logically invalid

 

but nice try, you deffo gets points for tossing up a decent video that I could so see persuading people who lack decent critical thinking and logical analysis skills (which is 95%+ of the population in many areas, especially in sceptic land)

 

cheers

Okay I see your an atheist and you believe the concept of good and evil is a construct. 

So as an atheist what you believe? How do you view good and evil? What is your take, how do you see it? And last what is the purpose of death, what role it serves in this world that we are in? 

 

[Vesper 27,281]

10 minutes ago, Atomiswave said:

Hey its fine by me Vesper, we all have a choice. I respect yours as I do with anyone else. It does not make you more or less of a person. Its all good.

fair enough

one of (probably the number one) my main issues with religion is when it affects ANYONE other than the person who believes in it and when it is used to threaten, coerce, kill, maim, subvert, enslave, torture, rape, steal, and destroy, etc (as it has been, is now being, and will be) for tens of thousands of years

[Vesper 27,281]

4 minutes ago, Fernando said:

Okay I see your an atheist and you believe the concept of good and evil is a construct. 

So as an atheist what you believe? How do you view good and evil? What is your take, how do you see it? And last what is the purpose of death, what role it serves in this world that we are in? 

 

my concept of right and wrong does not require an arbitrary god to delineate it

[Fernando 6,374]

9 minutes ago, Vesper said:

my concept of right and wrong does not require an arbitrary god to delineate it

So then we as human, as a society can create our own rules right? Of what we we feel is right and wrong? 

No God in the equation, okay let's go with that. So now we are society that does not include God in our decision making. We create our own rules of right and wrong. 

So how would that go? Is it based on what we feel? The circumstances we are in? etc etc

 

[Atomiswave 6,072]

12 minutes ago, Vesper said:

fair enough

one of (probably the number one) my main issues with religion is when it affects ANYONE other than the person who believes in it and when it is used to threaten, coerce, kill, maim, subvert, enslave, torture, rape, steal, and destroy, etc (as it has been, is now being, and will be) for tens of thousands of years

That I agree with, but thats us doing that in the name of religion and God etc....it was/is our choice not the creators.

[Atomiswave 6,072]

1 minute ago, Fernando said:

So then we as human, as a society can create our own rules right? Of what we we feel is right and wrong? 

No god in the equation, okay let's go with that. So now we are society that does not include god in our decision making. We create our own rules of right and wrong. 

So how would that go? Is it based on what we feel? The circumstances we are in? etc etc

 

Quote

 

What is your view of the vatican mate? Do you trust them?

[Vesper 27,281]

43 minutes ago, Fernando said:

So then we as human, as a society can create our own rules right?

that is how the modern, secular nation states are run

if you want a theocracy, perhaps move to the KSA or Iran as they are organised around the concept of religion as the ultimate arbiter of state power 

I shall pass on that

[Vesper 27,281]

46 minutes ago, Atomiswave said:

That I agree with, but thats us doing that in the name of religion and God etc....it was/is our choice not the creators.

but it was, is, and will be done IN THE NAME of some god or gods

thus the danger of all religions

you cannot have it both ways

'god' or gods get all the credit for everything, right up until it comes down to humans (acting in their name or names) doing horrific shit

The Handmaids Tale is a VERY plausible look at a dystopian society of death, one run by fundie Christians

Iran is areal life version of a dystopian society run by fundie Shi'ite Muslims

both are fucked up places to live for anyone who does not conform to their arbitrary, totalitarian visions

[Fernando 6,374]

8 minutes ago, Vesper said:

that is how the modern, secular nation states are run

if you want a theocracy, perhaps move to the KSA or Iran as they are organised around the concept of religion as the ultimate arbiter of state power 

I shall pass on that

?

You chose to not answer my question. 

How do we create our own laws, how we determined right and wrong. 

Unless your answer is based on herd mentality? Based on what the modern world is doing? 

 

[Vesper 27,281]

2 minutes ago, Fernando said:

?

You chose to not answer my question. 

How do we create our own laws, how we determined right and wrong. 

Unless your answer is based on herd mentality? Based on what the modern world is doing? 

 

We create law via the template of the modern nation state.

Society's norms and legal boundaries are distilled down into essence of the nation sate's collective sense of organisation via the processes set up at the founding, and then amended as time flows by. It is a living, breathing thing, not etched in stone for all time. 300 years ago chattel slavery was legal and acceptable, now it is not in most of the world. Funny thing that. The few places it IS legal still are almost all theocratical in nature. Go figure.

[Fernando 6,374]

25 minutes ago, Vesper said:

We create law via the template of the modern nation state.

Society's norms and legal boundaries are distilled down into essence of the nation sate's collective sense of organisation via the processes set up at the founding, and then amended as time flows by. It is a living, breathing thing, not etched in stone for all time. 300 years ago chattel slavery was legal and acceptable, now it is not in most of the world. Funny thing that. The few places it IS legal still are almost all theocratical in nature. Go figure.

What is at the founding?

How did we get consciences to set that up? How did we "collective sense organization" in the evolutionary process? 

Anyhow we are set up now and if we go by that, then it seems like a herd mentality. We go by circumstances. 

[Atomiswave 6,072]

28 minutes ago, Vesper said:

but it was, is, and will be done IN THE NAME of some god or gods

thus the danger of all religions

you cannot have it both ways

'god' or gods get all the credit for everything, right up until it comes down to humans (acting in their name or names) doing horrific shit

The Handmaids Tale is a VERY plausible look at a dystopian society of death, one run by fundie Christians

Iran is areal life version of a dystopian society run by fundie Shi'ite Muslims

both are fucked up places to live for anyone who does not conform to their arbitrary, totalitarian visions

Thats our fault, its on our door steps. Iran was not the best example, the likes Pakistan and Saudi are far worse. The regime has used Islam as a weapon to enforce their bs. The people are not like that.

[Vesper 27,281]

17 minutes ago, Fernando said:

What is at the founding?

How did we get consciences to set that up? How did we "collective sense organization" in the evolutionary process? 

Anyhow we are set up now and if we go by that, then it seems like a herd mentality. We go by circumstances. 

I am NOT going to be taken off course and get into a voluminous 2 week long discourse on fundamental organising of a modern nation state, especially as they already exist as fully fleshed out entities.

You your repeated allusions to a herd mentality are absolutely non-germane as no modern secular, pluralistic, democratic state is organised as such.

You are now just trying to pettifog and veer away from my original simple point.

There is a word for it that all the cool kids use

sealioning

Done here

[Vesper 27,281]

18 minutes ago, Atomiswave said:

Thats our fault, its on our door steps. Iran was not the best example, the likes Pakistan and Saudi are far worse. The regime has used Islam as a weapon to enforce their bs. The people are not like that.

people invented religion