kolovrat 13 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 2 hours ago, Fernando said: What is the opposite of free choice? Is it pre determined? Now let me ask you, are you free to answer that question? Are you making a truth claim? Yes, there are two options: 1. Is our life on rails, and everything is predetermined 2. free choice. I don't know if I am free or not to answer this question. How would I know? May be I was forced? Truth claim about what? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fernando 6,055 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 14 minutes ago, kolovrat said: Yes, there are two options: 1. Is our life on rails, and everything is predetermined 2. free choice. I don't know if I am free or not to answer this question. How would I know? May be I was forced? Truth claim about what? Truth claim = your rising above the bondage of total subjectivity. If your totally determined, your pre wire to think the way you do. So you can't make a truth statement. The moment you make a truth claim your violating determinism. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kolovrat 13 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 1 minute ago, Fernando said: Truth claim = your rising above the bondage of total subjectivity. If your total determined, your pre wire to think the way you do. So you can't make a truth statement. The moment you make a truth claim your violating determinism. Sorry, but I am not sure what all this means. Also, how can you make a 'truth claim' about the future? You can only guess. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
robsblubot 2,586 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 19 minutes ago, kolovrat said: Yes, there are two options: 1. Is our life on rails, and everything is predetermined 2. free choice. I don't know if I am free or not to answer this question. How would I know? May be I was forced? Truth claim about what? Simplest explanation wins? The chaotic universe we observe? Why wouldn't the sample principles apply to the animals on earth, some of which just happen to have big brains instead of claws? I think that the "life on rails" argument is the one that needs hard proof, being farther from the simplest explanation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fernando 6,055 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 7 minutes ago, kolovrat said: Sorry, but I am not sure what all this means. Also, how can you make a 'truth claim' about the future? You can only guess. You can ask a question about free will freely in the first place. If free will did not exist then your question has no essential meaning because it's just pre determined biological processes causing sound to come out of your vocal cords. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kolovrat 13 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 1 minute ago, Fernando said: You can ask a question about free will freely in the first place. If free will did not exist then your question had essential no meaning because it's just pre determined biological processes causing sound to come out of your vocal cords. Again I am not sure I understand what you are saying (sorry). Asking a question about free will doesn't make you free or proves free will. Because you don't know if you were determined to ask this question. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kolovrat 13 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 18 minutes ago, robsblubot said: Simplest explanation wins? The chaotic universe we observe? Why wouldn't the sample principles apply to the animals on earth, some of which just happen to have big brains instead of claws? I think that the "life on rails" argument is the one that needs hard proof, being farther from the simplest explanation. We cannot apply Occam's razor in this case since it deals with empirical reality, and not with ontological question regarding God existence, who in turn may or may not give us free will. Can you please provide 'hard proof' of free will? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
robsblubot 2,586 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 1 hour ago, kolovrat said: We cannot apply Occam's razor in this case since it deals with empirical reality, and not with ontological question regarding God existence, who in turn may or may not give us free will. Can you please provide 'hard proof' of free will? Free will equates to the random chaotic universe, which is what we observe. So, the best "evidence" we've got points to the simplest explanation. Which is that they both exist in the same reality and abide by the same rules. For me free will is the "default" explanation: the absence of a "designed" principle behind one's decision making. So, again, for me, the "on rails" is the one that needs hard proof. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vesper 21,829 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 Information Philosopher probably the best (or at least top 5) philosophy sites on the web here is the intro part to free will Freedom https://www.informationphilosopher.com/freedom/ knock yourselves out A Taxonomy of Free Will Positions Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vesper 21,829 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 Trump caved transition is beginning Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Atomiswave 5,535 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 10 hours ago, kolovrat said: In order to prove you have a choice you need to have a point in the future that has a concrete outcome, and then change it with your free choice. Since you don't know the future, you cannot change it. Sorry mate but that does not compute with me, your getting all technical. Im not talking about certain outcome or decision making. I have a choice to go to work in 30min or call in sick, my choice to be moody at work or be happy etc. Even if someone fucks it up for me and makes my work harder, its still my choice whether I let it effect me or not. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fulham Broadway 14,641 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 Leader of the Free World has gone proper mentalist with his latest tweets. Just because he doesnt drink, doesnt mean he doesnt do few tabs of acid or chows down on some mushrooms in a mescaline sandwich now and again 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vesper 21,829 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 17 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said: Leader of the Free World has gone proper mentalist with his latest tweets. Just because he doesnt drink, doesnt mean he doesnt do few tabs of acid or chows down on some mushrooms in a mescaline sandwich now and again he is an Adderall junkie 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fulham Broadway 14,641 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 Shouldnt mock really -should be a lesson to us all, be careful who we vote for - and surely there are better candidates than the multi millionaires, who fancy a bit of politics but know fuck all about real lives, they keep chucking up at us 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Atomiswave 5,535 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Fulham Broadway said: Shouldnt mock really -should be a lesson to us all, be careful who we vote for - and surely there are better candidates than the multi millionaires, who fancy a bit of politics but know fuck all about real lives, they keep chucking up at us We will never learn though we have seen this movie so so many times. We are gullible and incredibly easy to manipulate. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fulham Broadway 14,641 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 32 minutes ago, Atomiswave said: We will never learn though we have seen this movie so so many times. We are gullible and incredibly easy to manipulate. The whole poitik needs to change. As it stands it just suits the vested interests of a few 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
robsblubot 2,586 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 2 hours ago, Fulham Broadway said: Shouldnt mock really -should be a lesson to us all, be careful who we vote for - and surely there are better candidates than the multi millionaires, who fancy a bit of politics but know fuck all about real lives, they keep chucking up at us Could agree more in essence, but strongly disagree with "Shouldnt mock really" http://loser.com 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Atomiswave 5,535 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 5 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said: The whole poitik needs to change. As it stands it just suits the vested interests of a few Out with every single one of them, new and loyal freash faces who have truly been elected and not pre-elected. Exactly mate, it suits them not us, that much has history thaught us. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fulham Broadway 14,641 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 11 minutes ago, robsblubot said: Could agree more in essence, but strongly disagree with "Shouldnt mock really" http://loser.com Just thought perhaps he is really mentally ill - was thinking if it was a black bloke acting like that they would have sectioned him, injected, whisked away by men in white coats Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Atomiswave 5,535 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 2 hours ago, Fulham Broadway said: Shouldnt mock really -should be a lesson to us all, be careful who we vote for - and surely there are better candidates than the multi millionaires, who fancy a bit of politics but know fuck all about real lives, they keep chucking up at us BTW here in Denmark folks are furious with Mette Frederikson and that cuntbag Magnusson. Both traitors, Mette has done many illigal shit under covid. Magnusson went and sucked Bille Gates off as soon as he became the health minister. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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