Politics & Stuff

[CHOULO19 24,332]

LMAO Hillary just decided to out flank Donald Trump from the right on Palestine. She actually blasted him for being too dovish!  But yeah, sure, 'progressive'....

On 3/20/2016 at 4:32 PM, Sir Mikel OBE said:

Study: Bernie Sanders's tax hikes are bigger than Donald Trump's tax cuts

The kicker is in the details:

 

Nobody would vote for this in a general election. His tax increases are simply horrific for the middle class. You can try to sell it on free college and free healthcare, but the average middle class family already struggling with bills aren't signing up for a hit that much bigger than Hillarys plan. 

 

She is the only option going forward.

 

Now add a third column of what the average family from each income bracket is already spending on health care and education...

Not sure what you are trying to prove when every single poll shows that Bernie would not only win but do WAY better than Hillary against every republican candidate. A LOT of actual progressive would never vote for Hillary Clinton. Some will even vote for whoever is running against her, even if it's Donald Trump. 

[Pizy 17,860]

Bernie would have no chance in a GE against Trump. He'd be slaughtered. 

Hillary will win by a massive margin in the end, I predict.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

2 minutes ago, Pizy said:

Bernie would have no chance in a GE against Trump. He'd be slaughtered. 

Hillary will win by a massive margin in the end, I predict.

That's based on what, though?

At the moment, on average of all the national polls that have been done, Bernie beats Trump by TEN points, which is four more than Hillary would.

And it makes sense, because independents would overwhelmingly vote for Sanders while very few would vote for as establishment candidate like Hillary. 

[Kieran. 6,317]

31 minutes ago, Pizy said:

Bernie would have no chance in a GE against Trump. He'd be slaughtered. 

Hillary will win by a massive margin in the end, I predict.

You're forgetting the independent voter. They support Bernie more than any other candidate. 

[Pizy 17,860]

2 hours ago, CHOULO19 said:

That's based on what, though?

At the moment, on average of all the national polls that have been done, Bernie beats Trump by TEN points, which is four more than Hillary would.

And it makes sense, because independents would overwhelmingly vote for Sanders while very few would vote for as establishment candidate like Hillary. 

I'm just not sure Bernie would get African Americans, Latino's, basically any minority voters, women, older Democratic voters to turn out in significant enough numbers to beat Trump. Hillary has and will continue to dominate Bernie with those demographics.

Plus, once Hillary does win the Dem nomination she'll have the support and endorsements from the likes of Obama, Bill Clinton, hopefully Bernie, and many other influential figures. 

I really like Bernie and respect what he's preaching, but clearly not enough people buy into his "revolution." I think he'd wipe the floor with Trump in the debates and is far, FAR more qualified to be the President but I'm just not sure he unifies and draws huge numbers of voters like Hillary will.

[Sir Mikel OBE 4,733]

3 hours ago, CHOULO19 said:

LMAO Hillary just decided to out flank Donald Trump from the right on Palestine. She actually blasted him for being too dovish!  But yeah, sure, 'progressive'....

Now add a third column of what the average family from each income bracket is already spending on health care and education...

Not sure what you are trying to prove when every single poll shows that Bernie would not only win but do WAY better than Hillary against every republican candidate. A LOT of actual progressive would never vote for Hillary Clinton. Some will even vote for whoever is running against her, even if it's Donald Trump. 

k-12 is already subsidized via Taxes. The only families spending on education are people who choose to send their kids to private school, or people with kids in College who are most likely getting loans.  That is coming out of their current paycheck.

 

Health is an issue that is being worked with via the Affordable care act, which Hillary has promised to improve without jacking up taxes. You can bring up those two, but in a general election people barely making ends meet so far will not accept seeing such tax increases. It would make him unelectable to most people. The polls also said Hillary was a lock in Michigan, and she lost that state. I am telling you Bernie is doing better in those polls because he has not had a rightwing campaign attack him the way Hillary has. You think the average 30-50k a year family in the midwest will see those tax increases and say "I am all in"? That it could stand up against Ads and debates in a general election?

 

Very few Progressives would vote Trump over Hillary, a woman who agrees with Bernie Sanders >90% of the time. From a practical standpoint it would make little sense because Trump is on the complete opposite side of the spectrum. Those type of people do exist though, and they are called bernie bros. They are usually people who already have a certain level of privilege(usually via being white and upper middle class) who really wouldnt be any worse off under Trump. I mean Trump comes for the Muslims and Hispanics, two groups those people are not a part of and wouldnt be directly hurt if such groups were attacked. They are a very small group in all honesty though. The vast majority of Democrats would support who the party nominates over a republican, and the vast majority support Hillary seeing as she's not only crushing with popular vote, but also with delegates and party super delegates.  

[CHOULO19 24,332]

4 hours ago, Pizy said:

I'm just not sure Bernie would get African Americans, Latino's, basically any minority voters, women, older Democratic voters to turn out in significant enough numbers to beat Trump. Hillary has and will continue to dominate Bernie with those demographics.

Plus, once Hillary does win the Dem nomination she'll have the support and endorsements from the likes of Obama, Bill Clinton, hopefully Bernie, and many other influential figures. 

I really like Bernie and respect what he's preaching, but clearly not enough people buy into his "revolution." I think he'd wipe the floor with Trump in the debates and is far, FAR more qualified to be the President but I'm just not sure he unifies and draws huge numbers of voters like Hillary will.

Well if those minorities are going to vote for him against anyone, surely it would be against Trump....plus he overwhelmingly has the support of Arabs and Muslims. It's what won him Michigan.

 

1 hour ago, Sir Mikel OBE said:

k-12 is already subsidized via Taxes. The only families spending on education are people who choose to send their kids to private school, or people with kids in College who are most likely getting loans.  That is coming out of their current paycheck.

 

Health is an issue that is being worked with via the Affordable care act, which Hillary has promised to improve without jacking up taxes. You can bring up those two, but in a general election people barely making ends meet so far will not accept seeing such tax increases. It would make him unelectable to most people. The polls also said Hillary was a lock in Michigan, and she lost that state. I am telling you Bernie is doing better in those polls because he has not had a rightwing campaign attack him the way Hillary has. You think the average 30-50k a year family in the midwest will see those tax increases and say "I am all in"? That it could stand up against Ads and debates in a general election?

 

Very few Progressives would vote Trump over Hillary, a woman who agrees with Bernie Sanders >90% of the time. From a practical standpoint it would make little sense because Trump is on the complete opposite side of the spectrum. Those type of people do exist though, and they are called bernie bros. They are usually people who already have a certain level of privilege(usually via being white and upper middle class) who really wouldnt be any worse off under Trump. I mean Trump comes for the Muslims and Hispanics, two groups those people are not a part of and wouldnt be directly hurt if such groups were attacked. They are a very small group in all honesty though. The vast majority of Democrats would support who the party nominates over a republican, and the vast majority support Hillary seeing as she's not only crushing with popular vote, but also with delegates and party super delegates.  

Mate, I don't mean to be dismissive of your well written response, but your analysis is completely through the lenses of the political 'game' and not at all about the substance of the policies. 

That's not politics, at least not to me. Politics is about what is choosing actually good for the community. When your argument against something has nothing to do with its substance but just that those other guys won't ever make it happen, then you're probably rooting for the wrong candidate...

I've read, and actually know, progressive people who would rather vote for Trump over Hillary, particularly Arab-Americans who are handy with her work in the middle east. Certainly that number has gone up today with her speech at AIPAC. Trump, who flip-flops on everything, has been consistently way more progressive than Hillary on trade agreements and foreign policy; impact wise on the world, probably the two most important issues. But she'd probably get a centrist supreme justice instead of a right wing one like Trump would...

As I've said in this thread before, if I were an American citizen, I'd probably not vote (or vote Jill Stein), but pressed between Hillary and Trump, I'd take the small-handed maniac any day. 

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Hope all our Belgian members are safe. 

[Special Juan 27,092]

Horrible news out of Belgium this morning.

God bless all of them, thoughts with everyone involved and with all the Belgian people.

[Hamilton 2,118]

Just disgusting..

 

??✌

[Stingray 9,441]

Just escaped the bombing at the subway station Maalbeek. Missed it by minutes. Jezus Christ ......

[Special Juan 27,092]

1 minute ago, Stingray said:

Just escaped the bombing at the subway station Maalbeek. Missed it by minutes. Jezus Christ ......

Glad you are safe pal.

[Cosmin 2,484]

2 minutes ago, Stingray said:

Just escaped the bombing at the subway station Maalbeek. Missed it by minutes. Jezus Christ ......

Happy to know that you're safe, mate! 

It's unbelievable what's happening... 

[Hamilton 2,118]

Wow stingray, happy you're safe..

[Weckerz 3,781]

37 minutes ago, Stingray said:

Just escaped the bombing at the subway station Maalbeek. Missed it by minutes. Jezus Christ ......

Glad you're alright.. my father was at the airport, complete chaos he says

[Stingray 9,441]

Glad you're alright.. my father was at the airport, complete chaos he says

I passed there .... Complete warzone.

[Sir Mikel OBE 4,733]

13 hours ago, CHOULO19 said:

Well if those minorities are going to vote for him against anyone, surely it would be against Trump....plus he overwhelmingly has the support of Arabs and Muslims. It's what won him Michigan.

 

Mate, I don't mean to be dismissive of your well written response, but your analysis is completely through the lenses of the political 'game' and not at all about the substance of the policies. 

That's not politics, at least not to me. Politics is about what is choosing actually good for the community. When your argument against something has nothing to do with its substance but just that those other guys won't ever make it happen, then you're probably rooting for the wrong candidate...

I've read, and actually know, progressive people who would rather vote for Trump over Hillary, particularly Arab-Americans who are handy with her work in the middle east. Certainly that number has gone up today with her speech at AIPAC. Trump, who flip-flops on everything, has been consistently way more progressive than Hillary on trade agreements and foreign policy; impact wise on the world, probably the two most important issues. But she'd probably get a centrist supreme justice instead of a right wing one like Trump would...

As I've said in this thread before, if I were an American citizen, I'd probably not vote (or vote Jill Stein), but pressed between Hillary and Trump, I'd take the small-handed maniac any day. 

 

Perfection is the enemy of the good. If someone promises me a pizza and has the dollar in hand, and another person promises me a benz with the abstract thought of taking the money from someone else, I take the pizza. That is the absolute truth in Hillary v. Sanders, and eventually Hillary v. trump. She is a politician, she knows the game, she has the support, and she is promising on keeping us on a path that Obama started which has been really good for the average American compared to where Bush left us in. Her America will happen because it already exists. It doesn't involve voting in a demagogue(who is already on TV over here using the Belgium attacks to preach xenophobic closed border policies) nor  a "revolution" where a candidate who has never paid for down candidate campaigns needing an entire reworked system to even achieve an inch of what he wants. It is simply idealism.

 

You should question the progressivism of your friends who would vote for a man who says "I am gonna build a wall and make them pay for it because we will win again" as an actual policy point over a woman who fought for health care reform over 20 years ago, and who has supported the party on the left for decades longer. He would never in a million years win a campaign, but just looking at him and the crowd he brings in is everything progressives should stand against.

I voted for Hillary on Super Tuesday(March 1st) because I believe her when she says she will keep the Obama policies that have brought us out of a recession going. I don't support everything she has done, but I do support what she will be able to get done, and the image she projects to the country.

 

Also Stay safe Belgium members!

[Tautvix 1,321]

Europe is getting what they have asked for.. Well done Merkel and co.

 

Welcome refugees...