Gary Cahill

[The Skipper 20,593]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. However if you think that PSG aren't being stupid in offering £48 million for the bloke...

Which is fair enough, I can understand that.

And of course, PSG definitely overpaid though, by quite some fee as well. Luiz should've gone for around £30m at most but because they had solid competition from Barcelona and Bayern they made us a stupendous offer that blew the competition out of the water and we obviously couldn't resist that.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

Which is fair enough, I can understand that.

And of course, PSG definitely overpaid though, by quite some fee as well. Luiz should've gone for around £30m at most but because they had solid competition from Barcelona and Bayern they made us a stupendous offer that blew the competition out of the water and we obviously couldn't resist that.

As you say, it's down to personal opinion. There's no doubting that Luiz is by far the superior footballer on a technical level, but he is more prone to lapses in concentration than most CBs we've had in the past, and he is certainly a far riskier option in the defensive system Mourinho utilises. I'm sad to lose the man, but not the player, personally. And the transfer fee is an added bonus.

[OneMoSalah 8,611]

no, I never said player's valuations are that precise. Just that they ought to be taken into account, because they will never be that "off" either. Had PSG not been in the picture and DL would've been sold for 35m, which is hardly cheap for a defender. We bought him for 21M + Matic! So it's also not a one time thing either. Now, I am NOT the one here who chooses to ignore all these facts.

I've said over and over that PSG as the new rich has to overpay to acquire players... was it any different with City or even us before?

Just for the record, I'm not a big fan of Ronaldo and think Bale isn't t that far behind him (higher ceiling too). Messi (who's a genius) doesn't even have a price tag on him.

-------

Anyway David Luiz is gone and got us a lot of cash in return.

Shouldn't we be talking about Gary here though? How does he fare against other low block defenders?

Top of my head, Terry is still better; Godin is better as well; then you have players who are comfortable with both high and low blocks, like Kompany and Sergio Ramos. Though I feel Kompany is more comfortable in a low block. There aren't that many players of his type, who are much superior than Cahill.

Higher ceiling? If Bale gets half as good as Ronaldo then I will be shocked. Bale isn't even better than Di Maria in my eyes.

Cahill was partly only so good last year because he had JT next to him as well. I mean look at the difference when he plays with Jagielka for England, they were all over the place against Uruguay because Jagielka isn't as good a captain or as good at organising the defence as Terry is. Or as good a CB either.

[robsblubot 3,205]

Higher ceiling? If Bale gets half as good as Ronaldo then I will be shocked. Bale isn't even better than Di Maria in my eyes.

Cahill was partly only so good last year because he had JT next to him as well. I mean look at the difference when he plays with Jagielka for England, they were all over the place against Uruguay because Jagielka isn't as good a captain or as good at organising the defence as Terry is. Or as good a CB either.

Fair enough, but just don't rate Ronaldo in tight spaces. Big games are played in tight spaces and I feel Messi can do that while Ronaldo can't. Bale is also younger, so I guess we shall see.

Agree that Jaglielka isn't comparable to John terry. I also think Gary is a lot better than Jaglielka and both missed the leadership of a JT. After all there is a reason Gary plays for us and Jaglielka for Everton.

Concerning England, not that sure the defenders were that much to blame. It's really not the defenders' job to watch a player like Suarez, but the midfield. Midfield that was nowhere to be found most of the time, leaving the defense exposed, especially mister Gerrard.

[didierforever 7,349]

no dude, they are opinions.

David Luiz sold for 50M = FACT

David Luiz bought for 21m + Matic = FACT

Brain farts, bad decision making, never world class = OPINION

I for one have a hard time taking these opinions seriously, when considering the facts listed above.

Ohhhhkkkk. That's fine.

So torres to chelsea = 50mil £ FACT.

CARROL to pool = 35mil £ Fact.

They are a piece of shit strikers, that's just an opinion.

I too am having a hard time taking thw opinion that torres is shit seriously now.

[iseah100 5,612]

Ohhhhkkkk. That's fine.

So torres to chelsea = 50mil £ FACT.

CARROL to pool = 35mil £ Fact.

They are a piece of shit strikers, that's just an opinion.

I too am having a hard time taking thw opinion that torres is shit seriously now

Lucas to PSG £30M

Hazard to Chelsea-£32M

Obviously they are of equal skill level:ph34r:

[Strike 6,958]

... in an ultra defensive system where he is afforded more protection than in nearly every other top team. The right time to judge whether he is world class or not would be this season where Mourinho has promised a more forward thinking style. For now (imo) he is a defender who has enjoyed a great season because the team is set up in a way that maximizes his limited set of skills.

david luiz would have been useful then

[Jase 43,479]

david luiz would have been useful then

Like that is gonna work especially with Mourinho around. He would want defensive solidity at the back first before we even start going 'attack-crazy' upfront.

[robsblubot 3,205]

Ohhhhkkkk. That's fine.

So torres to chelsea = 50mil £ FACT.

CARROL to pool = 35mil £ Fact.

They are a piece of shit strikers, that's just an opinion.

I too am having a hard time taking thw opinion that torres is shit seriously now.

Torres CANNOT BE SOLD (at least not for 50m) = FACT

Carrol sold for peanuts by liverpool = FACT

DAVID LUIZ WAS EXTREMELY WELL SOLD (for a lot more than we paid) = FACT

David Luiz, after being named here the worst defender on earth by some luminaries around here, sold for 50M making him the most expensive defender ever = FACT

So, not only do you guys have a problem with facts, but also timing?! Do you understand that this deal took place AFTER he's been, according to you, the worse defender on earth (liability, etc)?! It's like if Bayern, Barca, and PSG were battling off to sign Torres or Carrol right now - do you see that happening?!

If you cannot see the difference, then I'm so sorry.

[The only place to be 11,313]

As I said before, It really comes down to preference and the style of defending you prefer.

And you prefer one who has 'concentration issues'?

The argument about these big clubs wanting to buy him is great....except another big club sold him. In fact a big manager (Jose Mourinho) rated him so lowly that he barely played him in defence when he had the choice.

David Luiz, after being named here the worst defender on earth by some luminaries around here, sold for 50M making him the most expensive defender ever = FACT

That's a lie. No-one thinks he's the worst defender ever.

In fact most people think he has the ability to be the best defender in the world. The problem is his mentality, or as The Skipper quite rightly criticised him - his concentration issues. What good is a defender who has 'concentration issues'?

[robsblubot 3,205]

And you prefer one who has 'concentration issues'?

The argument about these big clubs wanting to buy him is great....except another big club sold him. In fact a big manager (Jose Mourinho) rated him so lowly that he barely played him in defence when he had the choice.

That's a lie. No-one thinks he's the worst defender ever.

In fact most people think he has the ability to be the best defender in the world. The problem is his mentality, or as The Skipper quite rightly criticised him - his concentration issues. What good is a defender who has 'concentration issues'?

Speak for yourself man. I've been reading a lot about DL's hair lately.

I'm going to answer it, by saying that's really a question for Scolari, Guardiola, Barca, and PSG. Why don't they care about his concentration issues? I can only guess (honestly) they believe they can circumvent that by other means (teamwork/tactics/cover).

Be assured that if Luiz flops completely at PSG and is sold for 10m to everton I will be the first one here stating the obvious. However, some say he has already flopped for us and was still sold for 50m. That's really tough to grok.

Likewise if Mikel hits his head and starts performing like Pirlo or Modric, and Barca signs him for 30M, I will also be on here stating the obvious, that I was wrong.

Won't lose a minute of my sleep either way though.

[didierforever 7,349]

Torres CANNOT BE SOLD (at least not for 50m) = FACT

Carrol sold for peanuts by liverpool = FACT

DAVID LUIZ WAS EXTREMELY WELL SOLD (for a lot more than we paid) = FACT

David Luiz, after being named here the worst defender on earth by some luminaries around here, sold for 50M making him the most expensive defender ever = FACT

So, not only do you guys have a problem with facts, but also timing?! Do you understand that this deal took place AFTER he's been, according to you, the worse defender on earth (liability, etc)?! It's like if Bayern, Barca, and PSG were battling off to sign Torres or Carrol right now - do you see that happening?!

If you cannot see the difference, then I'm so sorry.

What was the amount that liverpool bought torres for? Was it 20mil £? Very near to the amount luiz was bought by us!!! What was the amount we bought torres for? Is it 50mil £, the same amount that luiz was bought for by psg? Atleast get your FACTS right if you want to do a comparision. So even torres was VERY WELL SOLD!!! Their transfers are very similar!!!! Luiz might not be as big a flop as torres simply cos he is a good footballer and has some fabulous character which torres never ever had. But if u can't see a simple FACT that psg over payed for luiz by more than half his amount then seriously well I can't help.

By the way Torres was also bought after a year or 2 of pretty average football and when he was no where near worth 50mil. Another similarity in these transfers.

As for luiz the transfer, the fact that a supposedly non-wc defender in cahill and a past his prime and aged JT were ahead of luiz in the eyes of our manager should be proof enough of how good luiz is. The fact that he will be replaced by a 20 year old kurt zouma should be another indicator.

[didierforever 7,349]

Dp

[Special Juan 27,093]

This could be the new Rafa Benitez thread with the 'Fact's' flying about.

[robsblubot 3,205]

^^ Care to point out which facts I got wrong?

What was the amount that liverpool bought torres for? Was it 20mil £? Very near to the amount luiz was bought by us!!! What was the amount we bought torres for? Is it 50mil £, the same amount that luiz was bought for by psg? Atleast get your FACTS right if you want to do a comparision. So even torres was VERY WELL SOLD!!! Their transfers are very similar!!!! Luiz might not be as big a flop as torres simply cos he is a good footballer and has some fabulous character which torres never ever had. But if u can't see a simple FACT that psg over payed for luiz by more than half his amount then seriously well I can't help.

By the way Torres was also bought after a year or 2 of pretty average football and when he was no where near worth 50mil. Another similarity in these transfers.

As for luiz the transfer, the fact that a supposedly non-wc defender in cahill and a past his prime and aged JT were ahead of luiz in the eyes of our manager should be proof enough of how good luiz is. The fact that he will be replaced by a 20 year old kurt zouma should be another indicator.

Chronologically:

Torres:

1. Torres was great for Liverpool for many seasons

2. We buy Torres for 50m

3. He's been awful for us (according to many)

4. We cannot sell Torres for 10m unless we pay his wages

Torres LOST (a lot of) value at Chelsea!

1. We buy David Luiz for 21m + Matic (say 25m)

2. According to you he's awful

3. We sell David Luiz for 50m making him the most expensive defender ever.

David Luiz INCREASED (really doubled!) his value at Chelsea!

[The only place to be 11,313]

David Luiz INCREASED (really doubled!) his value at Chelsea!

And if you can find a single football fan who thinks he's actually worth £50 million then you've done well.

I'm not sure if you can be the world's most expensive defender if you've played the majority of your club football in midfield for the last 6 months. Fact is he's hugely marketable which a club like PSG placed a premium on, whereas Jose Mourinho places a premium on winning. It was something of a coup for PSG to sign him.

But if you ignore the Instagramming, the marketing, the bobble-head dolls and focus simply on the 90 minutes of football then Luiz just wasn't up to snuff for Chelsea Football Club.

[robsblubot 3,205]

And if you can find a single football fan who thinks he's actually worth £50 million then you've done well.

I'm not sure if you can be the world's most expensive defender if you've played the majority of your club football in midfield for the last 6 months. Fact is he's hugely marketable which a club like PSG placed a premium on, whereas Jose Mourinho places a premium on winning. It was something of a coup for PSG to sign him.

But if you ignore the Instagramming, the marketing, the bobble-head dolls and focus simply on the 90 minutes of football then Luiz just wasn't up to snuff for Chelsea Football Club.

that was not the point though, but rather that his value increased. Fans are not paid to do proper research, crunch numbers... we only do the fun part of the "job."

Besides Jose himself priced DL at 35M - hardly a fire sale.

I was responding to the comparison with Torres situation - couldn't be any more distinct.

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http://america.aljazeera.com/blogs/worldcup/2014/6/21/more-defenders-havemeantmoregoalsandotherworldcupconundrums.html

Good read even if you don't agree with most if not all of it. It really goes into Total Football, even if unintentionally.

Again, I don't believe that there is only one way of wining in football - I've actually seen completely different styles do it.

And once again, I'm going to recomment the book soccernomics (Simon Kuper et al.), which is must read for fans of the game.

[didierforever 7,349]

^^ Care to point out which facts I got wrong?

Chronologically:

Torres:

1. Torres was great for Liverpool for many seasons

2. We buy Torres for 50m

3. He's been awful for us (according to many)

3. We cannot sell Torres for 10m unless we pay his wages

Torres LOST (a lot of) value at Chelsea!

1. We buy David Luiz for 21m + Matic (say 25m)

2. According to you he's awful

3. We sell David Luiz for 50m making him the most expensive defender ever.

David Luiz INCREASED (really doubled!) his value at Chelsea!

Did u even care to read what I wrote? Did u even inderstand the analogy I tried to put forth!!! What a waste of time...

The analogy of how similar their transfer careers are? Should I bother explaining again cos don't think someone who can't see luiz's shortcomings would be able to comprehend that.

I mean seriously how difficult is it to understand this one thing that the 50mil £ transfer means jacksquat cos we made the same mistake with torres. But well, poor vidic was never as good as luiz cos he costed barrly 6mil so...