Mikel John Obi

[Joe Cool 388]

This thread makes my head hurt.

[meetdoscar 335]

Shit player.....getting the vibe now

[CHOULO19 24,332]

So, you are saying that the entire Universe conspires against Mikel.

Anything that can go wrong does go wrong and Mikel is just a poor victim in all this huge conspiracy.

Maybe Chelsea are better off without such an unlucky player on the field.

PS: Not that I believe in any such delusion that you come up with, I am just trying to understand this deep rooted victimhood mentality.

No I'm saying that stats like Average goals conceded with and without a player have very little significance because there are countless other variables involved besides the player's presence like the opposition, our own lineup, the tactics of both teams and, to a great extent, luck as well.

[bleed_blue 136]

No I'm saying that stats like Average goals conceded with and without a player have very little significance because there are countless other variables involved besides the player's presence like the opposition, our own lineup, the tactics of both teams and, to a great extent, luck as well.

The countless other factors which only effect us negatively when Mikel plays. This universe I tell thee. So unfair

[robsblubot 3,205]

No I'm saying that stats like Average goals conceded with and without a player have very little significance because there are countless other variables involved besides the player's presence like the opposition, our own lineup, the tactics of both teams and, to a great extent, luck as well.

Same as any other stats including the ones you point to: it's all relative to opponents tactics as well. When the opponent considers mikel not an offensive threat, and rightfully so, they don't pressure him and then he has more freedom with his passing than other players.

Personally, I pay more attention to the team numbers than the indidual's; it's a team sport after all. Key word his is average.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

The countless other factors which only effect us negatively when Mikel plays. This universe I tell thee. So unfair

No, but logic implies that if there are many variables, you can't contribute the change in result to just one. That's basically the root of all scientific methodology and hence all human knowledge. Not sure you can change that for your convenience.

Same as any other stats including the ones you point to: it's all relative to opponents tactics as well. When the opponent considers mikel not an offensive threat, and rightfully so, they don't pressure him and then he has more freedom with his passing than other players.

Personally, I pay more attention to the team numbers than the indidual's; it's a team sport after all. Key word his is average.

You can of course make that claim because of course all football stats are flawed, but:

1) While both will inevitably be flawed, trying to infer conclusions about a player from a team stat is much more unreliable than inferring conclusions from individual stats because there are much more variables.

2) Mikel is constantly one our players under the most pressure because, first our pivot was always outnumbered in midfield last season, and second because Mikel is often trusted most by his teammates in tight spots because of his ball retention skills.

[robsblubot 3,205]

No, but logic implies that if there are many variables, you can't contribute the change in result to just one. That's basically the root of all scientific methodology and hence all human knowledge. Not sure you can change that for your convenience.

You can of course make that claim because of course all football stats are flawed, but:

1) While both will inevitably be flawed, trying to infer conclusions about a player from a team stat is much more unreliable than inferring conclusions from individual stats because there are much more variables.

2) Mikel is constantly one our players under the most pressure because, first our pivot was always outnumbered in midfield last season, and second because Mikel is often trusted most by his teammates in tight spots because of his ball retention skills.

#1) obviously we have different preferences, but at the end of the day what matters is the team. Fact is that our pivot was not strong enough last season, and Mikel was part of that as was Lampard and Ramires. Winning ratio is the only stat that matters.

#2) I have a real hard time with that statement. Most of Mikel supporters claim his atrocious attacking stats are due to him sitting very deep, and now you say he's constantly under pressure...

BTW, I reckon we just value certain attributes differently: you praise his ball retention skills and I think it's one of the most overrated abilities. There are tons of mediocre players (mean average) who can hold and protect the ball well. Gareth Barry is a prime example of a player who does little else. Scott Parker is another one. These guys actually do ok in England but get destroyed in Europe.

[bleed_blue 136]

#1) obviously we have different preferences, but at the end of the day what matters is the team. Fact is that our pivot was not strong enough last season, and Mikel was part of that as was Lampard and Ramires. Winning ratio is the only stat that matters.

#2) I have a real hard time with that statement. Most of Mikel supporters claim his atrocious attacking stats are due to him sitting very deep, and now you say he's constantly under pressure...

Choulo19 is making stuff up. His lies have been exposed in almost every thread. He once claimed that oscar cannot tackle. When slapped with actual numbers on his face, he refused to post again.

[bleed_blue 136]

No, but logic implies that if there are many variables, you can't contribute the change in result to just one. That's basically the root of all scientific methodology and hence all human knowledge. Not sure you can change that for your convenience.

You can of course make that claim because of course all football stats are flawed, but:

1) While both will inevitably be flawed, trying to infer conclusions about a player from a team stat is much more unreliable than inferring conclusions from individual stats because there are much more variables.

2) Mikel is constantly one our players under the most pressure because, first our pivot was always outnumbered in midfield last season, and second because Mikel is often trusted most by his teammates in tight spots because of his ball retention skills.

I think I get it. Its never mikel's fault. He is the best player in the world. Its just this awful universe that conspires against him.

1. Even in individual stats, mikel comes up a cropper except for safety safety first passing that the opposition does not mind in any way.

2. That ball retention skill is because opposition hardly tries to win the ball off him as they know mikel will not hurt them. Of course you will not know that because you don't actually watch us play. Remember when our pivot was outnumbered by Juventus n mikel played it straight to a juve player? I am sure you don't because you dont watch games.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

#1) obviously we have different preferences, but at the end of the day what matters is the team. Fact is that our pivot was not strong enough last season, and Mikel was part of that as was Lampard and Ramires. Winning ratio is the only stat that matters.

#2) I have a real hard time with that statement. Most of Mikel supporters claim his atrocious attacking stats are due to him sitting very deep, and now you say he's constantly under pressure...

1) Of course at the end of the day the only stat that matters is the winning stat, but I'm talking about making conclusions about players based on, or with the help of, stats. Surely it is more reliable to make those conclusions with stats that involve the player alone rather than making conclusions about a single player from stats that involve the whole team?

2) Mikel does indeed sit deeper than his partner in the pivot. Here are two images of his positioning in two random games (2-1 win over Sunderland and 2-2 draw with Liverpool):

As opposed to his pivot partner in those games, Ramires:

But I'm talking about getting the ball out of defense and into attack which was most of the time carried out by Mikel and not his partners in Ramires and Lampard because he is a much more consistent passer and because they like to make forward runs. But our lines last season were very far apart and no one from the front four was dropping back enough to receive the ball (which was arguably one of our biggest problems last season). This meant that our pivot was most of the time outnumbered in midfield and we often had to rely on long balls, mostly from our CBs, that would often end in us loosing possession. Out of the top 4 teams in the PL last season. Chelsea played the most long balls (1861) at the lowest accuracy (59.75%) (as opposed to 1660, 1535 & 1632 at 68.17%, 67,1% & 65.26% for united, city and arsenal respectively).

A lot of teams noticed this weakness and pressed our pivot and CBs when we were trying to get the ball out of defense, and obviously much of that pressure was on Mikel since ball transition was his job when he was on the pitch. Add to that the fact that Mikel was often handed the ball under more pressure than other players because his teammates, especially the back four, use him as an outlet and trust him more under pressure because he probably has the best ball retention skills in our squad. So even though Mikel is not a direct attacking threat to the opposition in terms of goals and assists, he still comes under great pressure from the opposition because pressuring Mikel really damages our attack.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Choulo19 is making stuff up. His lies have been exposed in almost every thread. He once claimed that oscar cannot tackle. When slapped with actual numbers on his face, he refused to post again.

I think I get it. Its never mikel's fault. He is the best player in the world. Its just this awful universe that conspires against him.

1. Even in individual stats, mikel comes up a cropper except for safety safety first passing that the opposition does not mind in any way.

2. That ball retention skill is because opposition hardly tries to win the ball off him as they know mikel will not hurt them. Of course you will not know that because you don't actually watch us play. Remember when our pivot was outnumbered by Juventus n mikel played it straight to a juve player? I am sure you don't because you dont watch games.

I see you've run out of proper arguments and answers...

And I'll never get why you take a simple discussion on a forum so seriously. You realize that neither of us will gain anything from this discussion, right?

[robsblubot 3,205]

1) Of course at the end of the day the only stat that matters is the winning stat, but I'm talking about making conclusions about players based on, or with the help of, stats. Surely it is more reliable to make those conclusions with stats that involve the player alone rather than making conclusions about a single player from stats that involve the whole team?

2) Mikel does indeed sit deeper than his partner in the pivot. Here are two images of his positioning in two random games (2-1 win over Sunderland and 2-2 draw with Liverpool):

As opposed to his pivot partner in those games, Ramires:

But I'm talking about getting the ball out of defense and into attack which was most of the time carried out by Mikel and not his partners in Ramires and Lampard because he is a much more consistent passer and because they like to make forward runs. But our lines last season were very far apart and no one from the front four was dropping back enough to receive the ball (which was arguably one of our biggest problems last season). This meant that our pivot was most of the time outnumbered in midfield and we often had to rely on long balls, mostly from our CBs, that would often end in us loosing possession. Out of the top 4 teams in the PL last season. Chelsea played the most long balls (1861) at the lowest accuracy (59.75%) (as opposed to 1660, 1535 & 1632 at 68.17%, 67,1% & 65.26% for united, city and arsenal respectively).

A lot of teams noticed this weakness and pressed our pivot and CBs when we were trying to get the ball out of defense, and obviously much of that pressure was on Mikel since ball transition was his job when he was on the pitch. Add to that the fact that Mikel was often handed the ball under more pressure than other players because his teammates, especially the back four, use him as an outlet and trust him more under pressure because he probably has the best ball retention skills in our squad. So even though Mikel is not a direct attacking threat to the opposition in terms of goals and assists, he still comes under great pressure from the opposition because pressuring Mikel really damages our attack.

interesting points.

We've been playing long balls for a decade now. I bet we've played even more long balls when Drogba was with us as it would only make sense.

I will still take it with a grain of salt considering that applying pressure to our deepest midfielder can't be done by any BPL teams but the absolute top. And frankly I just thought he was just not great regardless of opposition or conditions, under pressure or not. I just look at him and see an average player who does nothing terrible, but isn't influential enough in that key position.

All in all, considering your fair points, they at the most make Mikel a good/decent squad player, perhaps even rotation in the right condition, but not a starter. Again, because our opponents have players in the same position (or similar) who are just better, more versatile, that can contribute in different ways and conditions.

I am certainly looking forward to the beginning of the season. I'm terribly curious about how much the short squad affected our overall play last season. I honestly believe the lack of options did hurt, but it's been overstated. It's a fan's wishful thinking where his players are never at fault; they just did not have enough rest. I just don't buy that.

[zolayes 14,489]

Never take any notice of what a Squaw says ,,,they speak with forked tongues

[CHOULO19 24,332]

interesting points.

We've been playing long balls for a decade now. I bet we've played even more long balls when Drogba was with us as it would only make sense.

I will still take it with a grain of salt considering that applying pressure to our deepest midfielder can't be done by any BPL teams but the absolute top. And frankly I just thought he was just not great regardless of opposition or conditions, under pressure or not. I just look at him and see an average player who does nothing terrible, but isn't influential enough in that key position.

All in all, considering your fair points, they at the most make Mikel a good/decent squad player, perhaps even rotation in the right condition, but not a starter. Again, because our opponents have players in the same position (or similar) who are just better, more versatile, that can contribute in different ways and conditions.

I am certainly looking forward to the beginning of the season. I'm terribly curious about how much the short squad affected our overall play last season. I honestly believe the lack of options did hurt, but it's been overstated. It's a fan's wishful thinking where his players are never at fault; they just did not have enough rest. I just don't buy that.

Playing long balls made much more sense when we had Drogba, Malouda, Kalou..etc, but is almost pointless now with Mata, Oscar, Hazard, Torres who are all weak in the air as is evident in the terrible long ball accuracy.

We actually seemed to have more trouble moving the ball to the front four against mid-table teams than top teams because they leave less space behind them. This haunted us for the wholes season, but I think it was most evident in the league cup against Swansea. They pressed with their attackers and still managed to maintain a deep defensive line. And the result is that we conceded two goals at home because the CBs had no where to go with the ball except long and inevitable Iva ended up giving it away in dangerous areas twice. Even in the return leg, I remember we had something like 70% possession but barely mustered a few shots on target.

I believe that this season, Mikel was indeed average and struggled to be influential, I do not deny that. A lot of that is his fault; his form was inconsistent, and some of his performances after AFCON were bad. But a lot of it was not just down to him as well: our system (and at times lack of) did not fit him at all. Mikel is a utilization player. he is a team player while we were relying on individual skills most of the times in both attack and defense. He also lacked a partner that suites him, bar Ramires to some extent. That's why almost all of our best results (wins against Arsenal and Tottenham, FA cup games against united..etc) came when we had Mikel-Ramires in the pivot.

Now, if I were to judge on this season alone, then I would actually agree that he can be no more than a squad player. But knowing Mikel from previous seasons, and knowing what he is capable of, I think he can do very well under Jose. I think with Jose's counter-attacking football and partners like Ramires/MVG and KDB/Oscar he can be instrumental to the team just like he was under Carlo when he had Ballack and Lamps next to him. At least I hope so, because it could prove vital for our title challenge.

Regarding the squad depth, I think it did play a part, not just in tiredness, but also in the sense that when we rested some key players, the replacements were just not good enough (the home loss to QPR springs to mind). I believe we will see improvements in the performances of last season's players, but not only because of squad depth, but also because the players that were new to the team last season, like Hazard, Oscar, Azpi, have now managed to get used to the PL and have built chemistry with the rest of the team.

[bleed_blue 136]

I see you've run out of proper arguments and answers...

And I'll never get why you take a simple discussion on a forum so seriously. You realize that neither of us will gain anything from this discussion, right?

There was no argument left once you got into those conspiracy theories.

[kellzfresh 7,226]

But I'm talking about getting the ball out of defense and into at which was most of the time carried out by Mikel and not his partners in Ramires and Lampard because he is a much more consistent passer and because they like to make forward runs. But our lines last season were very far apart and no one from the front four was dropping back enough to receive the ball (which was arguably one of our biggest problems last season). This meant that our pivot was most of the time outnumbered in midfield and we often had to rely on long balls, mostly from our CBs, that would often end in us loosing possession. Out of the top 4 teams in the PL last season. Chelsea played the most long balls (1861) at the lowest accuracy (59.75%) (as opposed to 1660, 1535 & 1632 at 68.17%, 67,1% & 65.26% for united, city and arsenal respectively).

A lot of teams noticed this weakness and pressed our pivot and CBs when we were trying to get the ball out of defense, and obviously much of that pressure was on Mikel since ball transition was his job when he was on the pitch. Add to that the fact that Mikel was often handed the ball under more pressure than other players because his teammates, especially the back four, use him as an outlet and trust him more under pressure because he probably has the best ball retention skills in our squad. So even though Mikel is not a direct attacking threat to the opposition in terms of goals and assists, he still comes under great pressure from the opposition because pressuring Mikel really damages our attack.

Very good post defending mikel, think the best for a few pages now. But what you stated above is directly placing the blame on mata for not being mobile enough to cover the space in the midfield? Which is why we had to play long balls since mikel had no one to pass to except the CenterBacks?

[Phil Driver 503]

Mikel does not carry the ball out that is a big part of his failings as a player .

He usually only looks for a slow sideways/backwards pass,it is almost impossible to launch a counter attack with him in the team as well as this he never wins posession high up the pitch as Ramires does and springs a counter attack ,this really does not suit our three A/M's they feed on quick ball and the reason our lines are so stretched with Mikel in the team is because he is reluctant to squeeze the play and win the ball as high up the pitch as possible.

Of course if you have a holding midfielder who believes his job is to stand next to our two centre backs most of the time (due to a lack of mobility/stamina) we are often out numbered in midfield and the game is played in our half,rather than trying to squeeze the opposition and take the game to them and get our clever palyers on the ball in advanced areas as quickly as possible with good passing not long balls ,think about it if we are not to be stretched with Mikel in the team we need to play a defensive set up ,because Mikel sits deep all the time ,look at our champions league win .

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Mikel does not carry the ball out that is a big part of his failings as a player .

He usually only looks for a slow sideways/backwards pass,it is almost impossible to launch a counter attack with him in the team as well as this he never wins posession high up the pitch as Ramires does and springs a counter attack ,this really does not suit our three A/M's they feed on quick ball and the reason our lines are so stretched with Mikel in the team is because he is reluctant to squeeze the play and win the ball as high up the pitch as possible.

Of course if you have a holding midfielder who believes his job is to stand next to our two centre backs most of the time (due to a lack of mobility/stamina) we are often out numbered in midfield and the game is played in our half,rather than trying to squeeze the opposition and take the game to them and get our clever palyers on the ball in advanced areas as quickly as possible with good passing not long balls ,think about it if we are not to be stretched with Mikel in the team we need to play a defensive set up ,because Mikel sits deep all the time ,look at our champions league win .

65% of Mikel's passes last season in the league were forward, which is more than any other central midfielder we had (Rami 63.7%, Frank 62.2%, Oriol 62.4%). So that's not true at all. And his average pass length was 17m as opposed to 17 for Lamps and 16 for Rami, so he myth about him only playing easy short passes is also incorrect.

Yes, Mikel is not suited for pressing high up the pitch because he does not have the pace to run back; AVB tried it and it did not work too well. But for a team with a low block that likes to win the ball in their own half and then launch counter-attacks, like Jose Mourinho does, I think Mikel can be instrumental.