closed Man City 2-1 Chelsea

[Tomo 21,681]

3 hours ago, The Skipper said:

 

Not buying it sorry. Nonsensical and lazy analysis from Jose, read between the lines. He's not saying it in a genuine way imo. He obviously doesn't agree/understand the whole youth movement to begin. He's talking about Chelsea as if we're the complete team already and aren't lacking in quality and experience which is ridiculous in my opinion. Nobody expected Chelsea to be ahead of City at this stage of the season, some even had us scrapping for top 10. This sort of analysis from Jose sounds like jealousy/he's been proven wrong because he didn't believe in the youth when he was here, so he needs to scrutinize them in this veiled way which on the surface seems like fair criticism but let's be honest, it's bitter from him. Fake constructive criticism.

Let's actually keep it in context and look at all of our big games this season so far. We've played United, Liverpool (Super Cup), Leicester, Liverpool, United (League Cup), Ajax away and Ajax home. Let's just summarise these to see whether we've done bad in big games so far given our expectations. 

1. United away, first game of the season. 4-0 scoreline flatters United big time. Lampard's first game in the PL, individual mistakes severely punished but overall we definitely looked like the side with more potential (which has held true so far this season). Nobody too surprised about this result. Tactically naive and missing lots of players. 

2. Super Cup final. Against the best in Europe, matched them completely and we were arguably the better team overall. Lost on penalties. Already a huge improvement in a big game but again undone by some individual mistakes. Tactically pretty much spot on. 

3. Leicester are the second best team in the league atm and have been outstanding. A game we had under control but a lapse in concentration caused a goal to be conceded (set piece yet again mind you). Tactically pretty spot on again imo. 

4. Liverpool in the PL. Again undone by a set piece and some individual mistakes. However showcased a good framework tactically and didn't embarrass ourselves against the champions of Europe. 

5. United League cup - put out somewhat of a B team and again essentially beaten by a wonder set piece goal. Not really important imo. 

6. Ajax away and home. Superb win at the JCA, superb comeback at the Bridge. Glossed over by Jose as we're now suddenly expected to dismantle CL semi finalists. 

The point is that we've steadily been improving in big games and have put in some very promising performances. SFL has set his ambitions on creating an attacking team, a team that doesn't shelve it's whole identity in big games, something Jose fundamentally disagrees with as he's naturally a short term thinking, defensive coach. Jose doesn't do long term processes and to him it's about winning now rather than building something over the years like Klopp and Pep have. It's why he's been left behind in today's game. His criticism seems to be about Lampard's tactics when it's experience and quality that we're lacking. Overall we've been good tactically in big games. He's talking as if Chelsea should be beating all big teams this season which is far from the case. This is why I find his criticism disingenuous.  

I agree with all of that apart from the Leicester game. The space we left them in transitions was suicide and the only reason we escaped with a point was because Madison kept mistiming his through balls to Vardy.

[OneMoSalah 8,611]

8 hours ago, The Skipper said:

 

Not buying it sorry. Nonsensical and lazy analysis from Jose, read between the lines. He's not saying it in a genuine way imo. He obviously doesn't agree/understand the whole youth movement to begin. He's talking about Chelsea as if we're the complete team already and aren't lacking in quality and experience which is ridiculous in my opinion. Nobody expected Chelsea to be ahead of City at this stage of the season, some even had us scrapping for top 10. This sort of analysis from Jose sounds like jealousy/he's been proven wrong because he didn't believe in the youth when he was here, so he needs to scrutinize them in this veiled way which on the surface seems like fair criticism but let's be honest, it's bitter from him. Fake constructive criticism.

Let's actually keep it in context and look at all of our big games this season so far. We've played United, Liverpool (Super Cup), Leicester, Liverpool, United (League Cup), Ajax away and Ajax home. Let's just summarise these to see whether we've done bad in big games so far given our expectations. 

1. United away, first game of the season. 4-0 scoreline flatters United big time. Lampard's first game in the PL, individual mistakes severely punished but overall we definitely looked like the side with more potential (which has held true so far this season). Nobody too surprised about this result. Tactically naive and missing lots of players. 

2. Super Cup final. Against the best in Europe, matched them completely and we were arguably the better team overall. Lost on penalties. Already a huge improvement in a big game but again undone by some individual mistakes. Tactically pretty much spot on. 

3. Leicester are the second best team in the league atm and have been outstanding. A game we had under control but a lapse in concentration caused a goal to be conceded (set piece yet again mind you). Tactically pretty spot on again imo. 

4. Liverpool in the PL. Again undone by a set piece and some individual mistakes. However showcased a good framework tactically and didn't embarrass ourselves against the champions of Europe. 

5. United League cup - put out somewhat of a B team and again essentially beaten by a wonder set piece goal. Not really important imo. 

6. Ajax away and home. Superb win at the JCA, superb comeback at the Bridge. Glossed over by Jose as we're now suddenly expected to dismantle CL semi finalists. 

The point is that we've steadily been improving in big games and have put in some very promising performances. SFL has set his ambitions on creating an attacking team, a team that doesn't shelve it's whole identity in big games, something Jose fundamentally disagrees with as he's naturally a short term thinking, defensive coach. Jose doesn't do long term processes and to him it's about winning now rather than building something over the years like Klopp and Pep have. It's why he's been left behind in today's game. His criticism seems to be about Lampard's tactics when it's experience and quality that we're lacking. Overall we've been good tactically in big games. He's talking as if Chelsea should be beating all big teams this season which is far from the case. This is why I find his criticism disingenuous.  

Im still on the fence regarding these comments as some of it I'd say is spot on and some of it ie the comments after United game, is a bit off. I have really enjoyed him and Keane on Sky because they are straight up and arent biased compared to Neville and Carragher who make it a United and Liverpool love in every game. Even if they arent fucking playing 😂

The whole youth thing will be reflecting poorly on Jose and Conte for definite. If the whole buzz around us playing the academy players is going to affect his judgement, which I dont think it will, then he shouldn't be a manager or a pundit. Hes left us a few times and weve done right enough and even at United when he went they improved for a while, I doubt that has affected his judgement or opinion on taking or not taking jobs or particularly bothered him at any level. I mean he managed us and ended up at United so if the whole buzz around our youth playing is affecting him then I will be really surprised. 

He said in a game of that dimension you need more and as youve said the teams not the finished article but Jose being Jose, I think hes talking about it from what he would expect. He mentioned the gaps between the midfield and defence not being right IIRC which was spot on as well as our press consisting of 4 players going and the rest of the team not going, which again was fair and spot on. 

I do agree with you regarding the whole tactics and experience thing, it is experience but you cant get experience as a kid if your not playing. I do still think the game v Liverpool in the supercup is the best of our big game performances this season. Theres still plenty to work on. Set pieces are horrific still.

The Leicester game I think we were lucky we didnt lose because if Maddisons final ball was better theyd have won the game 100%. It was controlled to a point but the gaps were huge, Leicester just seemed to find it easy to get at the back line. I think if we sat a bit deeper, it would of suited us better because they'd have to pick us off and we would be a threat on the counter.

Again though he is learning and he has been tweaking set piece defending etc to no avail because we still look ropey defending them. Franks a flexible manager, hes still very much learning as well so this teams trajectory can only go up as will his stock as a manager. I think he has exceeded expectations so far as youve mentioned were above City, have played better without making any signings etc but we still have plenty to do.

[Vesper 27,282]

bottom line for me

Mou cannot be truly blamed as our academy product was shit compared to what is now, it was NOT from a lack of playing time

dozens have moved on and been dregs when they did get loads of PT

we just finally have gotten a pure gold class of several years

and I see more in the pipeline atm

Conor Gallagher may make all my ranting about DMF superfluous

Ugbo may end up a decent CF

Trevoh Chalabah looks like he might be a baller

Clarke-Salter (probably sold though) and Ampadu have big potential

 

and then there is (especially Anjorin, Guehi, Maatsen, and then, even younger, Ashley Akpan (looks a BEAST so far) and Jude Soonsup-Bell, a CF)

 

 

[Jase 43,479]

2 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Im still on the fence regarding these comments as some of it I'd say is spot on and some of it ie the comments after United game, is a bit off. I have really enjoyed him and Keane on Sky because they are straight up and arent biased compared to Neville and Carragher who make it a United and Liverpool love in every game. Even if they arent fucking playing 😂

The whole youth thing will be reflecting poorly on Jose and Conte for definite. If the whole buzz around us playing the academy players is going to affect his judgement, which I dont think it will, then he shouldn't be a manager or a pundit. Hes left us a few times and weve done right enough and even at United when he went they improved for a while, I doubt that has affected his judgement or opinion on taking or not taking jobs or particularly bothered him at any level. I mean he managed us and ended up at United so if the whole buzz around our youth playing is affecting him then I will be really surprised. 

He said in a game of that dimension you need more and as youve said the teams not the finished article but Jose being Jose, I think hes talking about it from what he would expect. He mentioned the gaps between the midfield and defence not being right IIRC which was spot on as well as our press consisting of 4 players going and the rest of the team not going, which again was fair and spot on. 

I do agree with you regarding the whole tactics and experience thing, it is experience but you cant get experience as a kid if your not playing. I do still think the game v Liverpool in the supercup is the best of our big game performances this season. Theres still plenty to work on. Set pieces are horrific still.

The Leicester game I think we were lucky we didnt lose because if Maddisons final ball was better theyd have won the game 100%. It was controlled to a point but the gaps were huge, Leicester just seemed to find it easy to get at the back line. I think if we sat a bit deeper, it would of suited us better because they'd have to pick us off and we would be a threat on the counter.

Again though he is learning and he has been tweaking set piece defending etc to no avail because we still look ropey defending them. Franks a flexible manager, hes still very much learning as well so this teams trajectory can only go up as will his stock as a manager. I think he has exceeded expectations so far as youve mentioned were above City, have played better without making any signings etc but we still have plenty to do.

Apart from the United game, the team's setup has generally been fine in the big games. Not perfect yet but right now, it's the stupid mistakes that are costing us - so many of them have come from set pieces!

Wouldn't say Mourinho was 100% wrong with his comments but what does he know about setting up for the big games other than parking the bus and hoping for the best?

Plus let's face it, Mourinho is not and will never be a fan of youth players. Our setup was crap in that United away game and the experienced players were the ones making stupid mistakes but what did Mourinho do? He blamed the younger players - Mount, Abraham etc. Didn't even mention Zouma by the way (we all know why). If he had been in charge of that defeat, we would have never seen the young players anymore. Would have been sold or loaned out by now, like what he did to De Bruyne and Salah. This is a manager who after all said he needs only 5 minutes (or something like that) to judge whether a young player is good or not. All he cares about is having the team for now and winning straight away. He's not bothered to develop and build a team for the future. It's little wonder that none of the big clubs are going after him like 10-12 years ago - besides his combustible character. Even Wenger was linked with the Bayern job and not him, which must have been a blow to his ego!

[killer1257 3,282]

bottom line for me
Mou cannot be truly blamed as our academy product was shit compared to what is now, it was NOT from a lack of playing time
dozens have moved on and been dregs when they did get loads of PT
we just finally have gotten a pure gold class of several years
and I see more in the pipeline atm
Conor Gallagher may make all my ranting about DMF superfluous
Ugbo may end up a decent CF
Trevoh Chalabah looks like he might be a baller
Clarke-Salter (probably sold though) and Ampadu have big potential
 
and then there is (especially Anjorin, Guehi, Maatsen, and then, even younger, Ashley Akpan (looks a BEAST so far) and Jude Soonsup-Bell, a CF)
 
 

About Mou. Mou really fucked up RLCs developtment and he fucked up Ake.Ake back than was ready to play first Team. Ake can play DM,LB and CB. He would have been the perfect squad player. But no, without ever seeing Ake on the Training pitch, he put him to the reserves. Benitez saw Ake's potential and that is why he gave him a Chance and Ake gave good Performances.

So, we had always potential. Boga is still the best dribbler I have seen in my days as a Fan of our Youth Team. He also did not get a Chance, even after a good pre season. Yes, he was Injury prone and he sometimes dribbled too much and lost the ball. The last thing is something you can work on.

Mou has zero knowledge about integrating Youth players. Lamps seems to be a master in that regard.Finally a coach that sees potential. I have been sick for years about these Youth Hater Coaches like Sarri and Mou. That is why I lost my passion for Youth Football

Gesendet von meinem SM-G920F mit Tapatalk

[Vesper 27,282]

30 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

About Mou. Mou really fucked up RLCs developtment and he fucked up Ake.Ake back than was ready to play first Team. Ake can play DM,LB and CB. He would have been the perfect squad player. But no, without ever seeing Ake on the Training pitch, he put him to the reserves. Benitez saw Ake's potential and that is why he gave him a Chance and Ake gave good Performances.

So, we had always potential. Boga is still the best dribbler I have seen in my days as a Fan of our Youth Team. He also did not get a Chance, even after a good pre season. Yes, he was Injury prone and he sometimes dribbled too much and lost the ball. The last thing is something you can work on.

Mou has zero knowledge about integrating Youth players. Lamps seems to be a master in that regard.Finally a coach that sees potential. I have been sick for years about these Youth Hater Coaches like Sarri and Mou. That is why I lost my passion for Youth Football

 

I accept this critique, it is valid when you go back to those players mentioned

and do agree especially with

 

[milka 3,305]

[Vesper 27,282]

4–2–1–3 Formation (Inter won the CL with this under Mou)

 

 

 

 

[milka 3,305]

 We need Kova this match .

See this stats .

 

[ZAPHOD2319 3,869]

Is the International month over yet?

[Vesper 27,282]

1 hour ago, ZAPHOD2319 said:

Is the International month over yet?

No, Tuesday is the last of this round's games.

https://www.espn.co.uk/football/scoreboard/_/league/all/date/20191119

[ZAPHOD2319 3,869]

USA plays Cuba on Tuesday.......I don't have the emotional budget to watch. If we win, we should have won, if we lose.......sigh.

[Stats 6,980]

7 hours ago, killer1257 said:

About Mou. Mou really fucked up RLCs developtment and he fucked up Ake.Ake back than was ready to play first Team. Ake can play DM,LB and CB. He would have been the perfect squad player. But no, without ever seeing Ake on the Training pitch, he put him to the reserves. Benitez saw Ake's potential and that is why he gave him a Chance and Ake gave good Performances.

So, we had always potential. Boga is still the best dribbler I have seen in my days as a Fan of our Youth Team. He also did not get a Chance, even after a good pre season. Yes, he was Injury prone and he sometimes dribbled too much and lost the ball. The last thing is something you can work on.

Mou has zero knowledge about integrating Youth players. Lamps seems to be a master in that regard.Finally a coach that sees potential. I have been sick for years about these Youth Hater Coaches like Sarri and Mou. That is why I lost my passion for Youth Football

Gesendet von meinem SM-G920F mit Tapatalk
 

Boga was one of my favourite players coming through the youth ranks. He had/has so much ability. Good to see him resurrecting his career at Sassuolo. He is really kicking on now and doing his solo individual acts. Scored 2 brilliant goals against Firoentina and Inter in the last month or so. Still think he can make it at the top. Similar to Gnabry. Has so much ability.

[Vesper 27,282]

Mancini FUCKED us for his old team Shitty

played Jorginho the full 90 minutes 

the game was 9 1 FFS!!!!!!

 

 

[Atomiswave 6,072]

13 hours ago, Vesper said:

Mancini FUCKED us for his old team Shitty

played Jorginho the ful 90 minutes 

the game was 9 1 FFS!!!!!!

 

 

Yup it stinks imo.....when will Clubs do something about this? He is a sleezy cunt that mancini, always been.

[fmsch24 312]

I would go with a 4-3-3 

                           Keppa 

Reece.            Tomori.         Zouma.    Emerson.

             Jorginho      Kova.      Kante 

          Willian.           Tammy.      Pulisic 

 

[ZAPHOD2319 3,869]

I wouldn't be surprised if CHO started over Pulisic after Puli sat out two international games.

[awkjello 11]

The bookmakers sees the chance of us beating City as likely as Palace beating Liverpool. I know they're at home but still kinda crazy imo.