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Jason

17. Mateo Kovacic

Started by Jason,

768 posts in this topic
6 minutes ago, 1905didierblue said:

Did you watch monaco the season before we bought baka?

That's like saying "Did you watch Higuain at Napoli?"...

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1 minute ago, Jason said:

Are people seriously using MOTM awards as some sort of barometer now? You're over-exaggerating his impact at Milan. Gattuso complained several times about Bakayoko's lack of ability and Bakayoko even had that public spat with Gattuso late last season!

Gattuso's comments were very early in the season and the spat was very late on. Milan's best period co-incided with baka's form and performances. Co-incidence? I think not. 

MoTM awards are a much better barometer than a statement saying "he really really did not" without any evidence to the contrary. Kovacic was piss poor the whole season long.

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8 minutes ago, 1905didierblue said:

Did not he win like 5/6 MoTM in a spell of 10 serie A games? He played the b2B to perfection. Breaking up play, carrying the ball and yes "the odd goal". 

Now tell me what did Kovacic did better than Baka not just last season but for the past 3/4 seasons, except for outputless dribbling

Oh you meant this season, sorry I misread and thought you was comparing there respective times at Chelsea.

Given we want to transition to a more possession based style of play yes I would much rather have Kova. If Frank persists with him in the attacking position of the 3 then yes I agree he would be a waste but in one of the other two I think he will turn out well (especially if Lampard plays a double pivot as he can sit back while Kante does his forays forward).

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Just now, Jason said:

That's like saying "Did you watch Higuain at Napoli?"...

He turned 30 lost his athleticism and pace. Compared to a 25 year old young midfielder who was injured, brought on earlier than expected and seemed to struggle in a league. Well baka has had 2 good seasons either side of his poor one here. Now since we are or should be talking about kovacic (rather than trying to justify his transfer by comparision with baka), tell me what has he done last season to be bought in this one.

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Just now, 1905didierblue said:

Gattuso's comments were very early in the season and the spat was very late on. Milan's best period co-incided with baka's form and performances. Co-incidence? I think not. 

Right, let's pretend Milan didn't sign Piatek mid-season and he never scored all those goals...

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Just now, 1905didierblue said:

He turned 30 lost his athleticism and pace. Compared to a 25 year old young midfielder who was injured, brought on earlier than expected and seemed to struggle in a league. Well baka has had 2 good seasons either side of his poor one here. Now since we are or should be talking about kovacic (rather than trying to justify his transfer by comparision with baka), tell me what has he done last season to be bought in this one.

Kovacic isn't world class, I'll give you that. But at the very least, he's solid and steady in an unspectacular way. Can act as a decent backup to Jorginho and if we're gonna continue playing attacking football, then Kovacic is the better fit than Bakayoko due to having superior technical ability.

And by the way, your expectations must have been low if you deem Bakayoko's season at Milan as good and the one at Monaco was only ONE season!

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7 minutes ago, 1905didierblue said:

Did you watch monaco the season before we bought baka?  

Also the fact that most on here have to go to "baka is not good enough, so buy kovacic" shows exactly what this buy is. A panic/short-term buy which would go down as another 40mil down the drain. 

If baka and DD are not the answer (which I made sure to write in my first post), then so is not kovacic. Wasting 40mil on kovacic is not even going to help us get top 6 in case jorginho/kante actually get injured long term.

Not much, but I watched more than enough of him at Chelsea to know he will go down as one of the worst players I've seen in a Chelsea shirt, and that goes for the Pre-Roman years too.

As I put on an earlier post, if we can sell Bakayoko and recoup as much of his fee as possible and it's being re-used on signing Kovacic I'm fine with that. I see Kovacic as a massive upgrade on Bakayoko for the points I've already made. In a team that will look to control games you need midfielders that can recycle the ball and are comfortable enough in possession under pressure with the ability and confidence to beat the press. 

This is all based on the assumption that Kovacic will compete with Jorginho and Kante for playing a deeper role. If he's used in an advanced role like Sarri did last season then I would then agree that it's a waste of money because his skill-set isn't suited for that role.

Johnnyeye, Jason, Tomo and 1 other like this

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3 minutes ago, Jason said:

Kovacic isn't world class, I'll give you that. But at the very least, he's solid and steady in an unspectacular way. Can act as a decent backup to Jorginho and if we're gonna continue playing attacking football, then Kovacic is the better fit than Bakayoko due to having superior technical ability.

And by the way, your expectations must have been low if you deem Bakayoko's season at Milan as good and the one at Monaco was only ONE season!

We are buying kovacic and you are talking about lowering expectations . :P

 

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/135211/Show/Tiemoué-Bakayoko

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/93894/Show/Mateo-Kovacic

Well, I dont know what exact barometers are we looking for but independent sites show baka to have had a better season.

 

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7 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

Not much, but I watched more than enough of him at Chelsea to know he will go down as one of the worst players I've seen in a Chelsea shirt, and that goes for the Pre-Roman years too.

As I put on an earlier post, if we can sell Bakayoko and recoup as much of his fee as possible and it's being re-used on signing Kovacic I'm fine with that. I see Kovacic as a massive upgrade on Bakayoko for the points I've already made. In a team that will look to control games you need midfielders that can recycle the ball and are comfortable enough in possession under pressure with the ability and confidence to beat the press. 

This is all based on the assumption that Kovacic will compete with Jorginho and Kante for playing a deeper role. If he's used in an advanced role like Sarri did last season then I would then agree that it's a waste of money because his skill-set isn't suited for that role.

Even if we consider that you are right that "kovacic is a massive upgrade to baka and DD", how does kovacic help us? 

Kovacic is exactly the kind of buy that makes the progression of youngsters impossible. He is a bang average player who provides nothing to us. He is not going to win us games, score goals, control the tempo or help us better our position in the PL table.

It is just another buy that we will be looking on in a couple of year's time and crying that look we have spent 600m+ on such players and have nothing to show for it (referring to the conversation some people were having in the "BOARD" forum). 

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54 minutes ago, 1905didierblue said:

We are buying kovacic and you are talking about lowering expectations . :P

If we could sign players this summer, then I would have preferred us to sign someone else over Kovacic. But since we can’t and given our current situation, I don’t necessarily mind this and I prefer his inclusion over Drinkwater, Bakayoko etc!

1 hour ago, 1905didierblue said:

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/135211/Show/Tiemoué-Bakayoko

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/93894/Show/Mateo-Kovacic

Well, I dont know what exact barometers are we looking for but independent sites show baka to have had a better season.

Both didn’t even play the same number of games/minutes, seems like a fair comparison...

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41 minutes ago, Jason said:

If we could sign players this summer, then I would have preferred us to sign someone else over Kovacic. But since we can’t and given our current situation, I don’t necessarily mind this and I prefer his inclusion over Drinkwater, Bakayoko etc!

Both didn’t even play the same number of games/minutes, seems like a fair comparison...

And waste another 40mil pounds on someone we cant offload in the future cause on wages and the fee which we would want to recoup. Oh yes, we have never ever been in this situation before. But I am sure Kovacic will single handedly lead us to top4 if not PL, right?

 

RLC and kovacic did not even play same games/minutes, so we cant compare them too,right?

 

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you can watch Baka play vs city and Juventus for monaco, clearly absolutely clumsy and poor on the ball, made 2 big errors for the juventus goals, i don't care if he had some dominant games vs FC Caen or something in a high quality team that made him appear better. He's awful

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28 minutes ago, 1905didierblue said:

And waste another 40mil pounds on someone we cant offload in the future cause on wages and the fee which we would want to recoup. Oh yes, we have never ever been in this situation before. But I am sure Kovacic will single handedly lead us to top4 if not PL, right?

RLC and kovacic did not even play same games/minutes, so we cant compare them too,right?

I wasn't the one who brought in the ratings to compare the players. If you're gonna do that, then at least ensure the players play the same number of games/minutes to get a clearer picture of the comparison.

If we're talking about performances and abilities, then it's Loftus-Cheek > Kovacic > Bakayoko. 

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1 hour ago, Jason said:

I wasn't the one who brought in the ratings to compare the players. If you're gonna do that, then at least ensure the players play the same number of games/minutes to get a clearer picture of the comparison.

If we're talking about performances and abilities, then it's Loftus-Cheek > Kovacic > Bakayoko. 

So we can just compare players who have played same number of games from now? Lol. What kind of logic is that.

He played 31 serie a games. And a total of 3274 minutes compared to kovacic's 3087 this season according to transfermarkt. I mean come on. Atleast argue with facts.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/mateo-kovacic/leistungsdaten/spieler/51471

https://www.transfermarkt.com/tiemoue-bakayoko/leistungsdaten/spieler/182618

As for the last part of post, this is based on what exactly now?

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Kovačić could play in any second tier * club as a starter in a bit different setup. For example, Herrera-role in Man United would be perfect for him - Matić destroyer, Pogba attacking outlet. Or Dembele-role at Spurs - Wanyama destroyer, Eriksen attacking outlet.

He is not bad player at all, not top world-class player of course, his problem is Jorginho who is better player.

Am I happy we are getting him? I guess I am, but not very much. Because he AND Jorginho deserve to play from the start, and I'll rather kill myself than watch those two in same lineup. He will always be a bit wasted here as long as Jorginho is our main man.

________________________

* first tier are Barca, Real, Juventus, maybe Bayern, Pool and City, you know what I mean, all top clubs except those guys

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