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Jorginho


Unionjack
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Guys on here wondering about Jorginho and Kante switching positions to improve us defensively. after watching yesterday, and seeing Kovacic coming on and playing superbly, I think until we get our defence sorted our best plan for defending is to attack and keep the ball. I know its not always possible, but we looked superb going forward but terrible at times defending. Jorginho is still getting used to the Premiership and his new team mates, once the "Sarri Ball" system is totally implemented I think he will do the Kante role but in a much more attacking way. With Kante and Kovacic assisting we will have one of the best midfields in the league. I also thought Kovacic and Hazard have already forged a good understanding of each others movement which augers well for us.

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6 hours ago, AndersonBLUE said:

Hmm can we swap him and Kante around? Have Kante screen the back four and have Jorge further up the field 

Don't think that would work well for Jorginho. Often times he'd have to go right-midfield or make runs behind the defence, run up and down and get himself into crowded areas with his back to the goal, while Kante would be the one needing to pick out the passes from the back. It just wouldn't work. In a 4-2-3-1 yes if we have them both sit deep, but we are now an attack first side, don't think we'll see too much of that.

5 hours ago, AndersonBLUE said:

Yes and did you not see yesterday’s game at all? Where we were cut open time and time again and conceding 2 goals which should have been more because of no midfield presence in defence? Sarris system shouldn’t just be copy paste

It will get better, all part of the learning curve. We still won our first two games, held 60%+ possession and scored 3 in each, kept one clean sheet. Last Conte year or in Mourinho's last year, when we were a strict defence first side we still made such schoolboy errors and conceded many soft goals. Difference now is that we can attack to compensate that and we still have loads of room to improve.

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8 hours ago, AndersonBLUE said:

Hmm can we swap him and Kante around? Have Kante screen the back four and have Jorge further up the field 

I think Jorginho still has to adapt to the pace in defensive situations, for the deepest MF player to not have been closer to the penalty spot for the second goal is criminal. He should be protecting that area. CBs didn't help either true enough but still that zone should have been his responsibility. I dont think playing Kante there and moving Jorginho higher up would be beneficial though. Jorginho is crucial to playing out and you can see that he is the go to guy when the CBs have the ball, much like Busquets at Barcelona, Fernandinho at City etc. In terms of those chances maybe they wouldn't have been goals but again I don't think it would of made a difference, everyone was flat footed in that situation, somebody unmarked running onto the ball is always going to have the advantage of somebody standing still. 

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7 hours ago, NiclasCFC said:

Have you even seen a minute of Chelsea since Sarri took over? Swaping them would kill our style of play.

 

1 hour ago, manpe said:

Don't think that would work well for Jorginho. Often times he'd have to go right-midfield or make runs behind the defence, run up and down and get himself into crowded areas with his back to the goal, while Kante would be the one needing to pick out the passes from the back. It just wouldn't work. In a 4-2-3-1 yes if we have them both sit deep, but we are now an attack first side, don't think we'll see too much of that.

I don't think any one realistically is saying they should switch role, obviously Kante can not do what Jorginho can do, and attempting to have Jorginho do what Kante does is a complete use of his skill set. An argument for an adjustment in Sarri system would be justified to get the best out of the players. 

Jorginho can still do everything he does from the buildup standpoint without needing to protect the back four. He would even have more freedom to move further up the pitch, and utilize his final ball. No doubt you would lose the runs from Kante from midfield but i think i would live with that.

 

Kinda similar to Busquets and Xavi years back. Xavi would drop deeper than anyone to build the attack, when transitioning Xavi would move further up the pitch while Busq would play deeper at that point. 

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59 minutes ago, Clockwork said:

 

I don't think any one realistically is saying they should switch role, obviously Kante can not do what Jorginho can do, and attempting to have Jorginho do what Kante does is a complete use of his skill set. An argument for an adjustment in Sarri system would be justified to get the best out of the players. 

Jorginho can still do everything he does from the buildup standpoint without needing to protect the back four. He would even have more freedom to move further up the pitch, and utilize his final ball. No doubt you would lose the runs from Kante from midfield but i think i would live with that.

 

Kinda similar to Busquets and Xavi years back. Xavi would drop deeper than anyone to build the attack, when transitioning Xavi would move further up the pitch while Busq would play deeper at that point. 

Perhaps but as you've said you would lose the runs and I think in a Sarri team having that is a big big plus because the forwards create spaces for other players and the likes of Kante or Barkley could expose those spaces and profit from them.  

I think Sarri has been working with the defenders and GK alone to try and build that defensive shape and will continue to do so for a bit and also with the midfielders to try get that balance right. Its only 2 games, it was a bit alarming because there was 2 or 3 big chances other than their goals that came from cut backs into that area and I think Jorginho should have been closer to that zone. Sarri said something like "we lost the players distances", not 100% sure but I think hes meaning the gaps between defence and MF without the ball? Still plenty to work on.

I think another thing that would maybe also not work is Kante isn't as excellent a passer (hes improved tenfold since he was at Leicester I feel though) going forward as Jorginho, those 30-40 yard passes where he can just open something up is a big plus too and under enough pressure having that relief is also excellent, I know that we will always have options in possession but having that quick pass into a MF runner, could be very good. Fair enough Luiz can do it too but I think Jorginho should remain as the deeper player, although we've already seen he does venture on a bit more too when he needs to to initiate the pressing and when we are trying to break teams down.

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19 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Sarri said something like "we lost the players distances", not 100% sure but I think hes meaning the gaps between defence and MF without the ball?

That is one thing, but the other thing I think he meant by that was that our players stood off their players too much, so when we wanted to press they were too far and it was no problem for Arsenal to pass themselves out of it. One of the things with pressing imo is that you don't give time to the opposing team to comfortably control the ball and raise their heads to pick a pass, but since we "lost distances" that's exactly what happened. We were chasing shadows in that 15 minute period.

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5 minutes ago, manpe said:

That is one thing, but the other thing I think he meant by that was that our players stood off their players too much, so when we wanted to press they were too far and it was no problem for Arsenal to pass themselves out of it. One of the things with pressing imo is that you don't give time to the opposing team to comfortably control the ball and raise their heads to pick a pass, but since we "lost distances" that's exactly what happened. We were chasing shadows in that 15 minute period.

I watched the game again earlier and noticed that the players were ball watching for all the Arsenal chances and goals. Nobody tracked the runners and everyone just went AWOL and allowed Arsenal players to have a free run inside the box. Instead of marking players, we're marking zonally. The Iwobi goal is a prime example. Also, the space between Luiz and Alonso is a problem. There were couple of instances where Arsenal cut us open by just simply playing balls into the space between them. Doesn't happen a lot, if at all, on the opposite side, which says something. That needs to be addressed ASAP.

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14 minutes ago, Jason said:

I watched the game again earlier and noticed that the players were ball watching for all the Arsenal chances and goals. Nobody tracked the runners and everyone just went AWOL and allowed Arsenal players to have a free run inside the box. Instead of marking players, we're marking zonally. The Iwobi goal is a prime example. Also, the space between Luiz and Alonso is a problem. There were couple of instances where Arsenal cut us open by just simply playing balls into the space between them. Doesn't happen a lot, if at all, on the opposite side, which says something. That needs to be addressed ASAP.

Unfortunately both Alonso and Luiz are terrible defensively, but among our best when we are in possession. Its a dilemma we must face. 

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5 hours ago, Jason said:

The space between Luiz and Alonso is a problem. There were couple of instances where Arsenal cut us open by just simply playing balls into the space between them. Doesn't happen a lot, if at all, on the opposite side, which says something. That needs to be addressed ASAP.

From what I've seen of Sarri's Napoli, the FB will go out to challenge the winger and the other 3 defenders will be in the box almost like a3 CB (because they shift to the ball side so much).

That's not the best video of it, I forget which one I saw that showed it in-game.

I think that gap being exploited more on the left vs the right isn't just down to Luiz and Alonso vs Azpi and Rudiger.  That's also Pedro and Kante vs Barkley and Willian

 

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4 minutes ago, Sideshow Luiz said:

From what I've seen of Sarri's Napoli, the FB will go out to challenge the winger and the other 3 defenders will be in the box almost like a3 CB (because they shift to the ball side so much).

That's not the best video of it, I forget which one I saw that showed it in-game.

I think that gap being exploited more on the left vs the right isn't just down to Luiz and Alonso vs Azpi and Rudiger.  That's also Pedro and Kante vs Barkley and Willian

 

His Napoli team without the ball, the defence would be narrow and try make the opposition play in the wings to get crosses in because with Kouliably and Albiol and another fullback when the other one goes out to challenge they would always be favourites in the air because the two CBs were extremely dominant in that aspect and they'd have their sitting midfield player tucked in at the penalty spot. Its interesting because in that regard if the ball comes in from Azpi's side, Rudiger, Luiz and Alonso are all very strong in the air for high crosses. Azpi is a bit shorter, although still solid enough in the air but hasnt got the height advantage (I know this sounds a lot like Mourinho wanting 4 6 ft plus defenders haha) but I think low cut backs will be a big issue for us this season if the centre backs and DM aren't in sync and have that awareness of the space where it could be extremely dangerous, particularly if MF runners are going to come if off the back of Jorginho, Kante and whoever plays that 3rd position.

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1 minute ago, OneMoSalah said:

His Napoli team without the ball, the defence would be narrow and try make the opposition play in the wings to get crosses in because with Kouliably and Albiol and another fullback when the other one goes out to challenge they would always be favourites in the air because the two CBs were extremely dominant in that aspect and they'd have their sitting midfield player tucked in at the penalty spot. Its interesting because in that regard if the ball comes in from Azpi's side, Rudiger, Luiz and Alonso are all very strong in the air for high crosses. Azpi is a bit shorter, although still solid enough in the air but hasnt got the height advantage (I know this sounds a lot like Mourinho wanting 4 6 ft plus defenders haha) but I think low cut backs will be a big issue for us this season if the centre backs and DM aren't in sync and have that awareness of the space where it could be extremely dangerous, particularly if MF runners are going to come if off the back of Jorginho, Kante and whoever plays that 3rd position.

That's what I thought.

I think the cutbacks will be sorted out, i'm not worried.  They've had such little time on the training pitch.  The French and Belgian players have only been back for 2-3 weeks. 

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5 minutes ago, Sideshow Luiz said:

That's what I thought.

I think the cutbacks will be sorted out, i'm not worried.  They've had such little time on the training pitch.  The French and Belgian players have only been back for 2-3 weeks. 

I think Jorginho is still maybe not 100% sure of the speed of the PL compared to Italy in defensive situations. Maybe not. Hes not very quick but he should be able to read those things and get in positions to prevent them. Maybe it was just individual errors but it happened a lot. 

I'm more concerned with Luiz in that back line more than anything but thats a different story altogether because as a player he has got a tendency to doze off a lot, which at 31 for a guy whos played for Chelsea, Brazil, PSG, Benfica... shouldn't be happening a lot but it has in his career. 

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Just now, OneMoSalah said:

I think Jorginho is still maybe not 100% sure of the speed of the PL in terms of Italy in defensive situations. Maybe not. Hes not very quick but he should be able to read those things and get in positions to prevent them. 

Im more concerned with Luiz in that back line more than anything but thats a different story altogether because as a player he has got a tendency to doze off a lot, which at 31 for a guy whos played for Chelsea, Brazil, PSG... shouldn't be happening a lot but it has in his career. 

I know we have the results right now, but I think we're only really 50-60% of the way there.  I'm still in the mind-set that we're looking at Oct/Nov before things are clicking.  We're seeing improvements every week.  At the start is was a move or 2 would look in synch.  Against Arsenal it was 20 minutes.  The second half was hard to judge because Arsenal kind of stopped playing and sat deep looking for a draw.  We have a long way to go still.

I know Luiz has his moments.  But, I'm not convinced that Albiol is better and Napoli had a solid defensive record.  We'll get there.  Right now, I'm going to hold off on worrying about personnel (Bakayoko aside, that was painfully obvious).  We need training ground reps more than anything right now.  

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14 hours ago, kellzfresh said:

 

Was just going to post this. Excellent vid.

I honestly cant believe our midfield at the moment, We have needed creative players of Jorgis and Mats class for such a long time. We were relying on Cescy to give us it and no matter how much I love the guy hes sadly dropped off and we were crying out for a upgrade. Specially in a Sarri team.

Jorgi gives much more than a spot on pass. He's got the mind of a chess master..

And the thing is that Mat K can fill in for him if that need ever arrises as hes got a great footballers head

I had to make my new signature for our 3 wise men. I don't think we fully understand yet just what they are going to do this season!. I think they will be  phenomenal.

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