test

Welcome to Talk Chelsea

Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to contribute to this site by submitting your own content or replying to existing content. You'll be able to customize your profile, receive reputation points as a reward for submitting content, while also communicating with other members via your own private inbox, plus much more! This message will be removed once you have signed in.

Special Juan

Sarri But Not Sarri Thread

Started by Special Juan,

2,491 posts in this topic
6 minutes ago, Vesper said:

Klopp plays direct simple (well simpler than most) football, seems to be working out oki for him. Juventus too. Bayern under Jupp Heynckes, Manure under OGS, also seem to follow that model. Mo won the CL at Inter playing it, well after tiki taka came onto the scene.

Tiki-taka was just a revival and update of the 1920's to 1942 Schalker Kreisel  ie. Schalke spinning top

https://halbfeldflanke.de/2015/12/der-schalker-kreisel/

http://gottfriedfuchs.blogspot.com/2014/06/schalker-kreisel.html

Related image

But that Barca team was the greatest team ever in my opinion. I do agree though, the game is over complicated at times. 

I just hope Uncle Sarri get's us playing SarriBall so we can all rejoice in playing pretty football at last.

Our fans need to be more patient. They are never happy. 

Moan if we play like wankers but win. Moan when we lose and play like shit.

Moan moan moan.

kc_blue, !Hazard! and Sideshow Luiz like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/01/2019 at 10:04 PM, Yeboii said:

You mean our best player with 10 goals and 10 assists in half a season?

that is hardly earth-shattering production

its really good yes, but the fact it is by far the best on the team in both categories is frightening

Messi has 23 goals and 13 assists in 22 games

CR7 has 15 and 8

Neymar has 18 and 9

Kane has 20 and 6

Luis Suárez has 16 and 7

Mauro Icardi has 16 and 4

Ousmane Dembélé has 10 and 5 in the equivalent of a third of a full Barca 50 or so game season season

Robert Lewandowski has 22 and 5

Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang has 16 and 4

Salah has 17 and 8

Mbappe has 17 and 10

Griezmann has 14 and 7

Raheem Sterling has 11 and 11

Sane has 10 and 11

Nicolas Pepe has 13 and 8

Hirving Lozano has 15 and 9

Pogba, ffs has 9 and 8 (and that is even scarier considering he had shit under Mo)

Jadon Sancho has 7 and 10, as an 18yo, in the equivalent of 15 full games

Luka Jovic has 17 and 4

Sébastien Haller hs 12 and 11

 

so, nope 10 and 10 is not anything that makes me stand in awe, especially as Sarriball is supposed to be this goal-scoring machine

20 and 20 (if he gets there) would be a career year, I hope he does

 

just for reference

another winger's career year

was

73 goals and 29 assists (that's in one Barca-only season 2011-12)

for the calendar year of 2012 

he had 91 goals and 41 assists in all comps

Image result for Lionel Messi 2011-12

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Vesper said:

that is hardly earth-shattering production

its really good yes, but the fact it is by far the best on the team in both categories is frightening

Messi has 23 goals and 13 assists in 22 games

CR7 has 15 and 8

Neymar has 18 and 9

Kane has 20 and 6

Luis Suárez has 16 and 7

Mauro Icardi has 16 and 4

Ousmane Dembélé has 10 and 5 in the equivalent of a third of a full Barca 50 or so game season season

Robert Lewandowski has 22 and 5

Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang has 16 and 4

Salah has 17 and 8

Mbappe has 17 and 10

Griezmann has 14 and 7

Raheem Sterling has 11 and 11

Sane has 10 and 11

Nicolas Pepe has 13 and 8

Hirving Lozano has 15 and 9

Pogba, ffs has 9 and 8 (and that is even scarier considering he had shit under Mo)

Jadon Sancho has 7 and 10, as an 18yo, in the equivalent of 15 full games

Luka Jovic has 17 and 4

Sébastien Haller hs 12 and 11

 

so, nope 10 and 10 is not anything that makes me stand in awe, especially as Sarriball is supposed to be this goal-scoring machine

20 and 20 (if he gets there) would be a career year, I hope he does

 

just for reference

another winger's career year

was

73 goals and 29 assists (that's in one Barca-only season 2011-12)

for the calendar year of 2012 

he had 91 goals and 41 assists in all comps

Image result for Lionel Messi 2011-12

that is hardly fair. Messi is probably the best player of all times, surely the best of the 21st century by a landslide, which I have to admit even though I dont like him. 

And Sarriball is obviously not a goalmachine and never was. His highest overall tally was 94 the year before last year and that even in Serie A is an ok but not outstanding number. City scored 106 last season. Last season Naples only scored a meagre 77 goals. What Napoli produced last season looked easy on the eye and good for highlight reels but obviously there were patches that were just as frustrating to look at as we are this season. And I don't think all the posession is a way of defence like the Del-Bosque Style. I think Sarri is just unable to find ways to break teams down or the team is unable to execute them. 

But back to Hazard. He obviously stands out bc we have a very average squad compared to what we had in the previous era and is the focal point of everything at Chelsea. Also currently in the EPL there is not that standout player but a few world class ones like Salah, de Bruyne, Silva, Agüero and Hazard. I dont even think those are much worse than the likes of mbappe,  c.ronaldo or Neymar but they dont stand out as stars as much mainly because of marketability, competitiveness of the leagues, and more critical reception of public and press. Hazard, whilst world class for 6 years now has at no stage of his career bee a top5 player  and never will be. His talent is second to only Messi i would venture but in terms of ambition, greed, hunger he lacks behind all those names mentiioned. I don't mind, he is who he is and he still might very well be the technically most gifted player in the history of this club. still if he is to become an absolute legend here he will do so by longevity, by seeing his peak out here and staying over a few more years. We will never forget how he carried this team to 2 epl titles albeit against mediocre competition, but I would always take peak Lampard and peak Drogba over peak Hazard. If Hazard leaves in summer it will hurt-short time but if we manage to overhaul the squad and find a decent manager he will not be missed for long. 

One final note is that we sadly will never find out how good Hazard would have been in a genuine quality side. I am not really sure if he has benefitted or been a victim of the huge abyss in quality between him and his fellow attackers but when you look at city they have 6,7 top class attackers so you see peeps like Sterling scoring as much as Hazard.

To sum up, Hazard standing out so much si not only due to his remarkable (albeit not generational) quality but also to the lack thereof in the rest of the squad wrt going forward. 

kc_blue likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Magic Lamps said:

that is hardly fair. Messi is probably the best player of all times, surely the best of the 21st century by a landslide, which I have to admit even though I dont like him. 

And Sarriball is obviously not a goalmachine and never was. His highest overall tally was 94 the year before last year and that even in Serie A is an ok but not outstanding number. City scored 106 last season. Last season Naples only scored a meagre 77 goals. What Napoli produced last season looked easy on the eye and good for highlight reels but obviously there were patches that were just as frustrating to look at as we are this season. And I don't think all the posession is a way of defence like the Del-Bosque Style. I think Sarri is just unable to find ways to break teams down or the team is unable to execute them. 

But back to Hazard. He obviously stands out bc we have a very average squad compared to what we had in the previous era and is the focal point of everything at Chelsea. Also currently in the EPL there is not that standout player but a few world class ones like Salah, de Bruyne, Silva, Agüero and Hazard. I dont even think those are much worse than the likes of mbappe,  c.ronaldo or Neymar but they dont stand out as stars as much mainly because of marketability, competitiveness of the leagues, and more critical reception of public and press. Hazard, whilst world class for 6 years now has at no stage of his career bee a top5 player  and never will be. His talent is second to only Messi i would venture but in terms of ambition, greed, hunger he lacks behind all those names mentiioned. I don't mind, he is who he is and he still might very well be the technically most gifted player in the history of this club. still if he is to become an absolute legend here he will do so by longevity, by seeing his peak out here and staying over a few more years. We will never forget how he carried this team to 2 epl titles albeit against mediocre competition, but I would always take peak Lampard and peak Drogba over peak Hazard. If Hazard leaves in summer it will hurt-short time but if we manage to overhaul the squad and find a decent manager he will not be missed for long. 

One final note is that we sadly will never find out how good Hazard would have been in a genuine quality side. I am not really sure if he has benefitted or been a victim of the huge abyss in quality between him and his fellow attackers but when you look at city they have 6,7 top class attackers so you see peeps like Sterling scoring as much as Hazard.

To sum up, Hazard standing out so much si not only due to his remarkable (albeit not generational) quality but also to the lack thereof in the rest of the squad wrt going forward. 

I agree with most, but my main focus was not on Messi, that was an add-on (fair or not) at the end to show the true gulf. I posted those 20 players to show that Hazard stats were not the crazy good, almost singular production (as in top several in world like some make it out to be) level it is being portrayed as.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Vesper said:

I agree with most, but my main focus was not on Messi, that was an add-on (fair or not) at the end to show the true gulf. I posted those 20 players to show that Hazard stats were not the crazy good, almost singular production (as in top several in world like some make it out to be) level it is being portrayed as.

fair enough. but i think you looked up all comps stats for those didn't you? in this case it would only fair to include hazards 2 efl cup goals too so he has 12 and 10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, DDA said:

Did you watch the whole game J? The second half they hung on by the skin of their teeth. If Spurs had their shooting boots on, they would have won that game comfortably. 

Barca under Guardiola was arguably the greatest team of all time and that was because they played in a system that was overwhelming even to Fergies United.

OGS's United will be tested soon and trust me, they will be found wanting. 

They are riding the high of Joses departure which can propell any team to glory. Lol.

My point is play the right players and set them in a way that maximize their ability. The players look shackled in a system that doesn't suit them and there is next to zero cohesion in the way we play at the moment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Jason said:

My point is play the right players and set them in a way that maximize their ability. The players look shackled in a system that doesn't suit them and there is next to zero cohesion in the way we play at the moment.

Agree a bit.

But as Ive said before the 2nd half of Shitty we played great. Wasn;t that long ago - same players!

If you watch the scout report of Sarris Napoli he had them in a rigid formation too.

When they moved whether forward or back they moved as a single unit. Like military marching.

They moved off the ball into the channels. Our lads dont move much off the ball into a position where our passers like Jorgi/Luiz can get it to them

kc_blue likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jason said:

It is silly to want the manager to at least be flexible or adaptable? :lol: I'm not asking Sarri to toss his style out of the window but rather, make little tweaks to maximize out of what he's got at the moment. Instead, he has forced his style upon the players and we have been extremely dull to watch, basically playing the kind of football we saw under Mourinho/Conte at its worst. Decent in defence but horrendous in offence and the only difference is, we have more possession but even that is useless if we don't make it count. Why force your style upon the players if they can't adapt to it? Furthermore, it's easy to say that Sarri needs his kind of players to fully implement his style but this is Chelsea we're talking about. Is he ever gonna get all of his players? The board operate in their interest half of the time while Sarri has mentioned he doesn't care much about his transfers. If Sarri cannot adapt to what he's got for the time being, then it doesn't bode well for the future, does it? We criticized Mourinho/Conte in the past for being stubborn, playing the same thing over and over again etc and yet, Sarri is getting a free pass because he's only six months in, even though the warning signs are already there.

Our league position may look good but let's not pretend the football has been good to watch. We haven't played well for 90 minutes for most part of the season, if there is any at all, we have been scraping victories of late as well, winning games only because of moments of individual brilliance rather than any cohesive team play. Plus, you never quite know with this team. Take a lead or concede a goal and we suddenly lose our way in matches. A six-point lead on Arsenal and United with 16 games to go is nothing. 

We seem to be regressing.

Unionjack likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sarri being the manager represents a club with no direction. Since 2012 the club is doing bad decisions in terms of football management. 

First big mistake: hiring Mourinho back in 2013. At that point the club was investing heavily in young players. Instead of paying big money for big names like Ballack, Crespo and Shevchenko, the club was getting Lukaku, Kevin de Bruyne, Hazard, Oscar. It was also a team in search of new leaders. Drogba was long gone, Lampard, Terry and Cech were aging. Mourinho just happened to be the worst manager for that kind of transfer policy and for what the team needed. 

After Mourinho the club got Conte. Dont get me wrong, Conte did a great job for one single season, but why he was the chosen one? Why the club decided he was the right man? It emerged days before Conte was annouced as the new manager, that Sampaoli didn’t get the job because his english was pretty poor. We are talking about 2 different animals...why thought both guys would make a good manager? Conte had nothing in his CV at that point o make him an exciting announcement.

Then the whole Conte vs Costa soap opera. That exposed a club without leadership. Why Conte was allowed to say that the main player in the whole squad was no longer needed and  still kept his job? If the club was serious, Conte would get sacked without questions. Instead, the club had to pay 70m for an average striker, because Antonio Conte said so, and still had to hear the manager moaning during the whole season.

Then they bring Sarri...why they thought Sarri would make a great coach? Why the club got a manager that demanded Jorginho, and a manager that was willing to sacrifice Kante, easily one of our most important players in past 2 seasons, and the hidden secret behind Leicester miracle, and a guy that just signed a big contract extention? 

Now it seems the club is willing to get a shitty old striker, because this striker worked with Sarri years ago.

Not to mention in past 2 seasons we only had one successful signing: Rudiger. 

In the past 2 seasons the clubs is spending money in Bakayoko, Palmieri, Zapaccosta, Giroud and Jorginho.

Fernando and Johnnyeye like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, DDA said:

But that Barca team was the greatest team ever in my opinion. I do agree though, the game is over complicated at times. 

I just hope Uncle Sarri get's us playing SarriBall so we can all rejoice in playing pretty football at last.

Our fans need to be more patient. They are never happy. 

Moan if we play like wankers but win. Moan when we lose and play like shit.

Moan moan moan.

Yes, that 2010–11 FC Barcelona team, that won 5 out of the six major trophies lineally (only losing 1 nil in Copa del Rey final to RM stopped them from being first Sextuple ever) was single greatest 1 season plus team ever, but I still rate the late 80's to early/mid 1990's AC Milan sides of Arrigo Sacchi and Fabio Capello as the best era ever. I know there is a lot of competition for that, including all of Peps Barca teams, the Bayern teams of the mid 70's, Ajax early 70's, the 5 in a row Real Madrid di Stefano sides, etc. But I think in a massive round robin tourney, those Milan sides would come out on top. Mainly because of the back 4 (Franco Baresi, Mauro Tassotti, Alessandro Costacurta and Paolo Maldini). and their MF (especially Roberto Donadoni, Ruud Gullit, Marcel Desailly, and Frank Rijkaard) plus peak Marco van Basten. They would tear up tiki-taka IMHO.

2023569_w1.jpg

kc_blue and Unionjack like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Jason said:

It is silly to want the manager to at least be flexible or adaptable? :lol: I'm not asking Sarri to toss his style out of the window but rather, make little tweaks to maximize out of what he's got at the moment. Instead, he has forced his style upon the players and we have been extremely dull to watch, basically playing the kind of football we saw under Mourinho/Conte at its worst. Decent in defence but horrendous in offence and the only difference is, we have more possession but even that is useless if we don't make it count. Why force your style upon the players if they can't adapt to it? Furthermore, it's easy to say that Sarri needs his kind of players to fully implement his style but this is Chelsea we're talking about. Is he ever gonna get all of his players? The board operate in their interest half of the time while Sarri has mentioned he doesn't care much about his transfers. If Sarri cannot adapt to what he's got for the time being, then it doesn't bode well for the future, does it? We criticized Mourinho/Conte in the past for being stubborn, playing the same thing over and over again etc and yet, Sarri is getting a free pass because he's only six months in, even though the warning signs are already there.

Our league position may look good but let's not pretend the football has been good to watch. We haven't played well for 90 minutes for most part of the season, if there is any at all, we have been scraping victories of late as well, winning games only because of moments of individual brilliance rather than any cohesive team play. Plus, you never quite know with this team. Take a lead or concede a goal and we suddenly lose our way in matches. A six-point lead on Arsenal and United with 16 games to go is nothing. 

If you watch our team right now what is the problem. Is it more of Sarri or our player. Our offense like you said is dull, boring but our defense is pretty good. If you told me that we will play back 4 with error prone David Luiz and slow mo Marcos Alonso as our starting 11, and our defense is good. I will think you are mad. But our defense is decent. Like you said is thank to our better ball retention. 

Offensively I think what you want is more directness, I kinda agree. We play too many short passes and they are slow passes. Jorginho performance play a factor plus we really need a striker. If we got a decent striker, I think everything will look much better. Just remember we scored some fun goals under mou after we signed Cesc and Costa. 

Btw can we stop with this kante as dm.  Does people realize how our dm is utilized in this system, his job is to play as regista. Having our best runner that have countless of stamina, spending 90% of the game sitting behind making short passes is a waste of kante talent. 

DYC. likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, DDA said:

But that Barca team was the greatest team ever in my opinion. I do agree though, the game is over complicated at times. 

I just hope Uncle Sarri get's us playing SarriBall so we can all rejoice in playing pretty football at last.

Our fans need to be more patient. They are never happy. 

Moan if we play like wankers but win. Moan when we lose and play like shit.

Moan moan moan.

I thinks most fans (including ours) want their team to play like Liverpool. Direct and fast

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Jason said:

It is silly to want the manager to at least be flexible or adaptable? :lol: I'm not asking Sarri to toss his style out of the window but rather, make little tweaks to maximize out of what he's got at the moment. Instead, he has forced his style upon the players and we have been extremely dull to watch, basically playing the kind of football we saw under Mourinho/Conte at its worst. Decent in defence but horrendous in offence and the only difference is, we have more possession but even that is useless if we don't make it count. Why force your style upon the players if they can't adapt to it? Furthermore, it's easy to say that Sarri needs his kind of players to fully implement his style but this is Chelsea we're talking about. Is he ever gonna get all of his players? The board operate in their interest half of the time while Sarri has mentioned he doesn't care much about his transfers. If Sarri cannot adapt to what he's got for the time being, then it doesn't bode well for the future, does it? We criticized Mourinho/Conte in the past for being stubborn, playing the same thing over and over again etc and yet, Sarri is getting a free pass because he's only six months in, even though the warning signs are already there.

Our league position may look good but let's not pretend the football has been good to watch. We haven't played well for 90 minutes for most part of the season, if there is any at all, we have been scraping victories of late as well, winning games only because of moments of individual brilliance rather than any cohesive team play. Plus, you never quite know with this team. Take a lead or concede a goal and we suddenly lose our way in matches. A six-point lead on Arsenal and United with 16 games to go is nothing. 

I already said why it's silly. We brought Sarri in to play attacking possession football. He's trying to implement that and now you want him to divert from that to be more pragmatic. 

Even if it's little tweaks every step away from attacking possession football will slow down the process of getting there. Also what "little " tweaks are you talking about because the most popular "little" tweak among our fan base is putting Kante on the 6 instead of Jorginho.

That's not a little tweak, that's not a little step. That is an enormous step away from possession football and towards more pragmatic football. 

"Why force your style " Euhm because we brought him in precisely because of his style...

"basically playing the kind of football we saw under Mourinho/Conte at its worst."  Ridiculous statement. Mourinho barely attempted to play out from the back and Conte tried but once teams figured us out and pressed us he was completely clueless on how to solve it. 

Comparing that to the way we press, keep possession and play out from the back (even under immense pressure) under Sarri. A lot of work goes into that. The final third is where things  go wrong and that is largely down to the lack of a proper striker and the lack of a quality RW (and fullbacks that aren't good going forward)

"Is he ever gonna get all his players" Not in 1 transferwindow. It is going to take time. Piece by piece, brick by brick. The players that don't adapt need to be replaced. This was always going to be a long term process. 

 

"A six-point lead on Arsenal and United with 16 games to go is nothing. " Nothing ? 6 points is a nice cushion and we're only 1 point behind Tottenham. 

And again all without a proper striker. 

 

kc_blue, Fernando and Panic like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Antonio8 said:

with crespo, drogba, lampard is simple to play simple football 

 

miss those guys, great times

Antonio8 likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This "attacking possession football" is so overrated these days.

You need a once in a lifetime player like Messi to play the Guardiola way AND sustain consistent title and champions league challenges. 

No other team was ever able to play that way and challenge as much, the closes thing to it currently is Liverpool, who have a huge amount of off the ball workers ( if you wonder why the likes of Wijnaldum and obviously Milner play week in week out ). 

Their press has nothing to do with ours, the quality of the players they have upfront either. 

In his first year, Klopp took over in October and still finished 8th. The following year he finished 4th, 1 point above the Wenger Arsenal that many deemed terrible without, without playing a single European game. Last year they finished 4th, once again barely above us whereas we were having one of our worst seasons in the Roman era. 

It took them 3 years to fully reach the potential they were craving, and Klopp had to test and fail before getting it right, I don't think Sarri will have enough time nor board support to do that, I don't think what he is aiming to reach is worth it. 

 

This club has always been about winning, even with limited squads we still had the "win at all costs and play nice if possible" mindset like in the 2017 title, we are moving away from that and it's sad to se for me at least.

Fernando likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the telling point will be where we are this time next year.  I'd like to think we'll be in a better place for all concerned but I have doubts.  Those doubts mainly hinge on our board more then the manager.

Sideshow Luiz, Unionjack and 0007 like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.