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Special Juan

Sarri But Not Sarri Thread

Started by Special Juan,

951 posts in this topic
21 hours ago, Mana said:

The United game is a reminder of Arsenal 2011. Pretty tippy tappy, several of our players bullied, all smoke - no fire, most possession, no win. 

If it wasn't for that last second equaliser, we would be sitting 5th by now. We failed to beat the weakest of the top 6 at our home turf.

And I can't stop thinking of, what if CHO/Pedro played instead of bloody Willian? What if Giroud started instead of the donkey?

Sarri made some errors before the kick off with that line up. Big time. Although we can continue to point fingers at Morata, Alonso and Willian, you have to also for this game point a finger at Sarri.

Playing the same rubbish players and not giving some of the youth a try out. We could have surprised Mourinho and he wouldn't know what to do.

Tbf we completely outplayed United in the first half with those "rubbish players on". Second half they were a lot better tactically and got to grips with our midfielders and started getting beyond Jorginho more and more, which I think will be a issue at times still as the team adapts (the gaps between the defence and midfield is still too big at time).

Theres plenty of positive signs but there was a stat that we've conceded a lot of clear cut chances this season so far, think it's the most out of the top 6 teams. The defence is still an issue for me, David Luiz in particular, for everything he offers on the ball cannot defend in a 2 man pairing. Rudiger is really coming into his own I feel and will continue to thrive under Sarri, the guys got everything. 

This giving youth a chance thing is the same every year. Regardless of manager, always comes up, people complain about why they don't play young player x or y.... seriously every year, does anybody genuinely expect any different? Who was the last guy who actually gave several young players a lot of minutes? Ancelotti? Ffs that was almost 10 years ago. Hudson Odoi had a better chance of playing last season when Hazard Willian and Pedro were out of form at the start of 2018, now Hazard is in top form and Pedro was playing well when he was in the team so its not easy to justify playing him over those 2 or even Willian who's a senior player who's been tried and tested. The culture of the club and its history doesn't help the manager or the young players.

We are still unbeaten and still adapting to Sarri's style. Plenty of positives and more to come yet.

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2 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Tbf we completely outplayed United in the first half with those "rubbish players on".

Exactly. Like Arsenal 2011. Only that Arsenal "dominate" most of the game instead of just the first half. Did those "rubbish players" win us the game? No! That's what I care about. Maybe we are using "outplayed" and "dominate" too strongly. Because we didn't. Dominate/outplay them via possession - I agree, but overall we were ONLY 1-0 up. Not good enough, and that doesn't show we "outplayed" them.

Quote

Second half they were a lot better tactically and got to grips with our midfielders and started getting beyond Jorginho more and more, which I think will be a issue at times still as the team adapts (the gaps between the defence and midfield is still too big at time).

...which is bad. How many times, especially last season - have we dominate first half only to wither on the second? 

Quote

This giving youth a chance thing is the same every year. Regardless of manager, always comes up, people complain about why they don't play young player x or y.... seriously every year, does anybody genuinely expect any different? Who was the last guy who actually gave several young players a lot of minutes? Ancelotti? Ffs that was almost 10 years ago. Hudson Odoi had a better chance of playing last season when Hazard Willian and Pedro were out of form at the start of 2018, now Hazard is in top form and Pedro was playing well when he was in the team so its not easy to justify playing him over those 2 or even Willian who's a senior player who's been tried and tested. The culture of the club and its history doesn't help the manager or the young players.

We are in big trouble then. Do you really want another De Bruyne moment here? CHO knows he has great potential, and he would want to play first team football. And fecking Willian is STILL out of form. He's almost as useless as Morata as far I'm concerned. No new contract, ship him out!

Quote

We are still unbeaten and still adapting to Sarri's style. Plenty of positives and more to come yet.

Arsenal lost twice and on level with points with us. I don't care if we are unbeaten. It's a useless stat right now, and is only significant if we won the title along with it.

We have fully adapted IMO to Sarri's style. It's just that some of the players are completely out of their depth on it. We won't improve, until we get in better players.

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17 hours ago, Mana said:

Exactly. Like Arsenal 2011. Only that Arsenal "dominate" most of the game instead of just the first half. Did those "rubbish players" win us the game? No! That's what I care about. Maybe we are using "outplayed" and "dominate" too strongly. Because we didn't. Dominate/outplay them via possession - I agree, but overall we were ONLY 1-0 up. Not good enough, and that doesn't show we "outplayed" them.

...which is bad. How many times, especially last season - have we dominate first half only to wither on the second? 

We are in big trouble then. Do you really want another De Bruyne moment here? CHO knows he has great potential, and he would want to play first team football. And fecking Willian is STILL out of form. He's almost as useless as Morata as far I'm concerned. No new contract, ship him out!

Arsenal lost twice and on level with points with us. I don't care if we are unbeaten. It's a useless stat right now, and is only significant if we won the title along with it.

We have fully adapted IMO to Sarri's style. It's just that some of the players are completely out of their depth on it. We won't improve, until we get in better players.

Jesus I suppose some people will never be happy.  Sarri needs time and the chance to build his team, anyone expecting a quick change and winning everything instantly are in for a big shock.

We played United off the park first half.... 

KDB didn't come through academy, I get it he's some player now but shit happens and he couldn't displace Willian Oscar or Schurrle st the time who were competing for 2 positions and a space on the bench. CHO is 17 years old, he's got huge potential but Jody Morris was right when he said in sky he's not ready for first team football every week.

Fully adapted? Don't be daft why do you think Sarri kept saying we need time and it could take a year to fully get used to his style.

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42 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

Jesus I suppose some people will never be happy.  Sarri needs time and the chance to build his team, anyone expecting a quick change and winning everything instantly are in for a big shock.

We played United off the park first half.... 

KDB didn't come through academy, I get it he's some player now but shit happens and he couldn't displace Willian Oscar or Schurrle st the time who were competing for 2 positions and a space on the bench. CHO is 17 years old, he's got huge potential but Jody Morris was right when he said in sky he's not ready for first team football every week.

Fully adapted? Don't be daft why do you think Sarri kept saying we need time and it could take a year to fully get used to his style.

CHO is getting NO football (I refuse to count youth league shite)

NOBODY said win everything right away

I detest normalcy bias and ostrich-like head-in-the-sand denialist, status-quo thinking and rationalisation

NOT saying you are doing this, but fuck knows I see it all over the goddamn web.

It is the same rot (starting with the board and cascading on down) that DESTROYED us each season after the last two titles

I and others look ahead to future-forward events and projections and at potential (on every level) and innate abilities and also at financial and contractual matters and at resale values,  and furthermore at externalities like the geo-political situation of Roman, etc etc etc etc etc.

Its part of a basic critical thinking approach to life and it applies to sports the same as it does to real world business strategy plus academic pursuits. It is called a..............

SWOT ANALYSIS

Image result for SWOT ANALYSIS

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4 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Jesus I suppose some people will never be happy.  Sarri needs time and the chance to build his team, anyone expecting a quick change and winning everything instantly are in for a big shock.

We played United off the park first half.... 

KDB didn't come through academy, I get it he's some player now but shit happens and he couldn't displace Willian Oscar or Schurrle st the time who were competing for 2 positions and a space on the bench. CHO is 17 years old, he's got huge potential but Jody Morris was right when he said in sky he's not ready for first team football every week.

Fully adapted? Don't be daft why do you think Sarri kept saying we need time and it could take a year to fully get used to his style.

I agree on the fact that Sarri needs time and chance to build his side. He's already improved our style and good part is how well the players have responded to it. 

However there are few things that I'm not exactly liking about the transition process. 

- Lack of rotation. I understand that Sarri is one of those managers who like to work it with a small group of players and has his favorites however with the amount of matches we play, rotation will be a key. It will help the team to be fresh and not be over-burdened. The realistic target this season should be top 4, anything else will be a bonus. 

- Integrating Young players. While he's building his team why are we not giving chances to the young players to adapt to his system and have some game time. Why are we not looking beyond the Luiz's, Pedro's, Willian's, Alonso's ... What is the use to playing the older players specially during the transition phase, it is better to play the young guys, do mistakes now and rectify them while we can. Imagine next season, we will need the team to be perfect after a year of transition and then trying new players will be a big risk.    

- Alternate strategies. After this season, every one would be well versed with our style and there will be ways to counter it ... so Sarri will need to evolve on that part, I dont think he had a plan B while he managed Napoli (Please correct me if I'm wrong) 

- And lastly No more of Morata plz ... 

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6 hours ago, Vesper said:

Its part of a basic critical thinking approach to life and it applies to sports the same as it does to real world business strategy plus academic pursuits. It is called a..............

SWOT ANALYSIS

Image result for SWOT ANALYSIS

OH GOD! Never thought I would see SWOT Analysis again, certainly not in a football forum! :lol: 

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11 hours ago, coolhead23 said:

I agree on the fact that Sarri needs time and chance to build his side. He's already improved our style and good part is how well the players have responded to it. 

However there are few things that I'm not exactly liking about the transition process. 

- Lack of rotation. I understand that Sarri is one of those managers who like to work it with a small group of players and has his favorites however with the amount of matches we play, rotation will be a key. It will help the team to be fresh and not be over-burdened. The realistic target this season should be top 4, anything else will be a bonus. 

- Integrating Young players. While he's building his team why are we not giving chances to the young players to adapt to his system and have some game time. Why are we not looking beyond the Luiz's, Pedro's, Willian's, Alonso's ... What is the use to playing the older players specially during the transition phase, it is better to play the young guys, do mistakes now and rectify them while we can. Imagine next season, we will need the team to be perfect after a year of transition and then trying new players will be a big risk.    

- Alternate strategies. After this season, every one would be well versed with our style and there will be ways to counter it ... so Sarri will need to evolve on that part, I dont think he had a plan B while he managed Napoli (Please correct me if I'm wrong) 

- And lastly No more of Morata plz ... 

A lack of rotation and lack of intergrating youngsters isn't just a Sarri problem (although he's known for not rotating his players a lot). These things were problems under Conte and Mourinho too.

I agree Luiz, Willian, Pedro, Alonso aren't the best players but they are tried and trusted or have won the managers trust. For a new manager in a high pressure environment where we've sacked people for finishing second like Ancelotti, who was introducting youngsters into the squad at the time, it's easy to see why he's doing this and it's stupid to automatically assume other wise. Even Guardiola would do the same here (he's never brought through any young players from the academy since his days at Barca who've gone on to become regulars).

Plan B is Giroud I think but considering Morata has been poor, it's difficult. 

16 hours ago, Vesper said:

CHO is getting NO football (I refuse to count youth league shite)

NOBODY said win everything right away

I detest normalcy bias and ostrich-like head-in-the-sand denialist, status-quo thinking and rationalisation

NOT saying you are doing this, but fuck knows I see it all over the goddamn web.

It is the same rot (starting with the board and cascading on down) that DESTROYED us each season after the last two titles

I and others look ahead to future-forward events and projections and at potential (on every level) and innate abilities and also at financial and contractual matters and at resale values,  and furthermore at externalities like the geo-political situation of Roman, etc etc etc etc etc.

Its part of a basic critical thinking approach to life and it applies to sports the same as it does to real world business strategy plus academic pursuits. It is called a..............

SWOT ANALYSIS

Image result for SWOT ANALYSIS

Regarding CHO, do you change a unbeaten team? Who other than Morata look more than decent enough? Regarding CHO and his potential I would like to see him play but realistically people have to understand he has a lot to do to get ahead of Pedro and Willian in the pecking order. 

There will be pressure on Sarri to be competitive this season and win something if he can. This is Chelsea Football Club and that pressure always exists here. Talking about the rot wirh the board and transfers, we've got a manager who says he doesn't care about the market as much, so don't expect any huge changes. Its the same people except we dont have Mourinho or Conte in charge who wanted more of a say. Also players and motivation levels one year after winning the title under Jose and Conte too was a big part of our downfall.

The last two paragraphs, your obviously well educated but it's not always that complicated. Also things regarding finances, projections, Romans political situation you cannot predict that and it would be daft to do so or even claim to consider it in the long run, this is the first time I've ever seen someone mention SWOT when discussing football.... some of those things really are completely irrelevant to what goes on on the pitch. Maybe some could have effects but I think your seriously overcomplicating things.

Regarding a lot from the last few pages, Sarri said we were behind City and Liverpool, I mean we all knew that so its a bit early to start panicking or questioning things like a lack of Rotation/youth players playing 4 or 5 months into a coaches career when we are unbeaten in the league too and changing our style massively. Fans can be fickle, we won trophies under Conte and Mourinho but people wanted them out for various reasons. 

Sarri has done a good job so far. We've conceded a lot of big chances which concerns me but so far so good.

 

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We would have scored another 10 or so goals this season in PL if we had Icardi, Diego Costa, Higuain or even Samuel Eto'o instead of Morata and Giroud up there.

Look at Morata's chances against United! Proper striker would have scored a brace in that game

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On 25/10/2018 at 5:15 AM, OneMoSalah said:

Jesus I suppose some people will never be happy.  Sarri needs time and the chance to build his team, anyone expecting a quick change and winning everything instantly are in for a big shock.

We played United off the park first half.... 

KDB didn't come through academy, I get it he's some player now but shit happens and he couldn't displace Willian Oscar or Schurrle st the time who were competing for 2 positions and a space on the bench. CHO is 17 years old, he's got huge potential but Jody Morris was right when he said in sky he's not ready for first team football every week.

Fully adapted? Don't be daft why do you think Sarri kept saying we need time and it could take a year to fully get used to his style.

It's certain wums that derail threads all the time and bring fantasy stories on how half the squad should be sold in January because they are either not good enough, don't want to sign a new deal (???) or they simply do not fit their (wums) vision of how the club should be run. Modern football fan nowadays is a mixture of Sacchi, Guardiola and Ferguson when it comes to tactics and also a transfer guru and would make an excelent Director of football. 

Lots of people simply don't understand, or they don't want to, that Sarri is not here to become a hero among the fans by promoting the entire Academy over night. He is a 59 yo manager that has won nothing so far and he is basically on the big stage for only 4 years. This job now to manage one of world's biggest clubs is his dream, surely he is going to do everything to hold on to it and prove to himself that managing for decades in Italian lower tiers was worth it in the end. 

Sarri is here to prove something to himself and the world and fight for trophies by using the best players he believes that fit his style, not to give 17 year olds debuts. At least not for now. 

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17 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

 

A lack of rotation and lack of intergrating youngsters isn't just a Sarri problem (although he's known for not rotating his players a lot). These things were problems under Conte and Mourinho too.

I agree Luiz, Willian, Pedro, Alonso aren't the best players but they are tried and trusted or have won the managers trust. For a new manager in a high pressure environment where we've sacked people for finishing second like Ancelotti, who was introducting youngsters into the squad at the time, it's easy to see why he's doing this and it's stupid to automatically assume other wise. Even Guardiola would do the same here (he's never brought through any young players from the academy since his days at Barca who've gone on to become regulars).

Plan B is Giroud I think but considering Morata has been poor, it's difficult. 

 

I dont agree, It's curerntly a Sarri's problem, he is the manager who will need to take the responsibility and history suggests since the problem was not addressed before, look at Conte & Mourinho ... both sacked. (One of the factors) 

I understand the tried and trusted thing but when your the manager in the first season you have the privilege of taking risk so that you have the perfect team next season. What is the point in playing safe today while u need to built up a team and be in chaos from the next. Look at the situation now, no one is expecting us to win the title but the change in approach which is what everyone is enjoying. Honestly if Sarri is doing the safe thing then after the second season he will be getting the stick just like his predecessors. 

And on the Ancelotti sacking thing, the board cant afford to do it anymore as we already have a bad reputation and no top manager would want to come in easily. And what Pep would have done or not, I dont care as he isnt our manager. 

Bottom line is that Sarri has to do things differently while improving us else just like the other managers he will be on the same path to get sacked. 

 

And Plan B is Giroud ... Seriously!!! He is plan A for now. 

I was referring to strategy rather than personal. 

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On 10/24/2018 at 4:33 AM, Mana said:

Exactly. Like Arsenal 2011. Only that Arsenal "dominate" most of the game instead of just the first half. Did those "rubbish players" win us the game? No! That's what I care about. Maybe we are using "outplayed" and "dominate" too strongly. Because we didn't. Dominate/outplay them via possession - I agree, but overall we were ONLY 1-0 up. Not good enough, and that doesn't show we "outplayed" them.

...which is bad. How many times, especially last season - have we dominate first half only to wither on the second? 

We are in big trouble then. Do you really want another De Bruyne moment here? CHO knows he has great potential, and he would want to play first team football. And fecking Willian is STILL out of form. He's almost as useless as Morata as far I'm concerned. No new contract, ship him out!

Arsenal lost twice and on level with points with us. I don't care if we are unbeaten. It's a useless stat right now, and is only significant if we won the title along with it.

We have fully adapted IMO to Sarri's style. It's just that some of the players are completely out of their depth on it. We won't improve, until we get in better players.

The problem begins with getting Mourinho back, not getting someone like Klopp as manager and the decisions thereafter. 

Apparently we have another manager who does NOT rotate, nor does he play young players often enough.

For anyone who thinks that there's nothing wrongheaded about this management preference for experienced players only, you should look to Barca, RM, and other clubs with big budgets who have seen their young players in the starting eleven regularly in past seasons. 

Nice start by Sarri, but I think we need to decide on how important top 3 is while acknowledging we won't win the league with our lack of scoring players. Sarri should be using more of our talented young players soon.

I agree with you Mana. We need better goalscorers up top and some options at fullback and centre back that we lack. Not sure about how Sarri is setting up the centre midfield. We don't look at all like a side that wins the PL; remove Hazard from lineup and what do we have? 

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On 10/25/2018 at 3:15 AM, OneMoSalah said:

Jesus I suppose some people will never be happy.  Sarri needs time and the chance to build his team, anyone expecting a quick change and winning everything instantly are in for a big shock.

Sarri needs more time? That's like saying a jockey needs more time with a three-legged horse. I am not expecting us to win something this season, if we do it's a massive bonus. What I'm saying is, with our current players, no matter how good he tries to implement his style we won't reach the full potential. Why? When you have donkeys like Morata who constantly screw things up, there is nothing Sarri could do to improve it. You either have it, or you don't. 

Quote

We played United off the park first half.... 

But we finished the half 1-0 FFS. That means we didn't completely played them off the park. That doesn't show "dominance". Yes we played better than them, but they managed to hang on and guess what? They almost reaped the rewards. The game is 90 minutes, not 45 - don't get it twisted.

Quote

KDB didn't come through academy, I get it he's some player now but shit happens and he couldn't displace Willian Oscar or Schurrle st the time who were competing for 2 positions and a space on the bench. CHO is 17 years old, he's got huge potential but Jody Morris was right when he said in sky he's not ready for first team football every week.

We are not asking for CHO to play every week. We are asking him to SEE him once a while. Could be Carabao Cup or EL. Yesterday was the first ever time CHO got to play in a match (that isn't injury time) this season, and it was only for 20 odd minutes.

Quote

Fully adapted? Don't be daft why do you think Sarri kept saying we need time and it could take a year to fully get used to his style.

What he means is that he needs more time to buy players. There is a lot of deadwood in our squad who just couldn't handle his style. Pedro, who I thought was a finished guy at Chelsea bloomed in Sarri's style. So did Hazard, Giroud (even though he needs to score goals FFS), Rudiger, Jorginho....you just see it, and THESE are the players Sarri was talking about. They need more time to bloom to their full potential. Kante, Azpi and maybe Alonso, Barkley aside, everyone else is seriously struggling with Sarri's style. And those ones are pretty much helpless.

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Problem is when you dominate games and yet still drop points despite all that. That is going to be our downfall this season. We have no reliable goal scorer. Hazard but if he gets injured.. 

Liverpool.we led.. We drew. Man U we led. We drew. 

Next season is when is when things go pear shaped. Maybe they'll learn.. Probably not. 

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Outside the box thinking here...

what about a 3-1-3-3 formation?

GK Kepa

LCB Rudiger

CCB Luiz

RCB Azpi

DMF Destroyer Kante (who, along with the CB's instantly sets up the offence by getting the ball to Jorginho after a pressing turnover or a takeawy)

DH Playmaker Jorginho

CMF Box to Box/AMF hybrid  Kovacic

AMF Barkley or RLC

LW Hazard

RW Pedro or Willian

CF Giroud or Morata

 

would look like this:

 

                                           Hazard               Giroud                  Pedro/Willian

                                                                                       

                                                                                                      Barkley/RLC

                                 Kovacic                                          

                                                                        Jorginho

 

                                                     <<<<<<<<    Kante      >>>>>>>>> 

 

                 Rudiger                                               Luiz                                                   Azpi

 

                                                                            Kepa

 

It would seem to put Kante back in a position where he can go back to what he does best, wreaking havoc as a true DMF floater. It also takes pressure off Luiz and allows Azpi to concentrate on defence. Only player we drop is the turtle Alonso.

 

Thoughts?

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6 hours ago, Vesper said:

Outside the box thinking here...

what about a 3-1-3-3 formation?

GK Kepa

LCB Rudiger

CCB Luiz

RCB Azpi

DMF Destroyer Kante (who, along with the CB's instantly sets up the offence by getting the ball to Jorginho after a pressing turnover or a takeawy)

DH Playmaker Jorginho

CMF Box to Box/AMF hybrid  Kovacic

AMF Barkley or RLC

LW Hazard

RW Pedro or Willian

CF Giroud or Morata

 

would look like this:

 

                                           Hazard               Giroud                  Pedro/Willian

                                                                                       

                                                                                                      Barkley/RLC

                                 Kovacic                                          

                                                                        Jorginho

 

                                                     <<<<<<<<    Kante      >>>>>>>>> 

 

                 Rudiger                                               Luiz                                                   Azpi

 

                                                                            Kepa

 

It would seem to put Kante back in a position where he can go back to what he does best, wreaking havoc as a true DMF floater. It also takes pressure off Luiz and allows Azpi to concentrate on defence. Only player we drop is the turtle Alonso.

 

Thoughts?

Without full/wing-backs we would struggle defensively a lot, for that reason alone I wouldn't try that.

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But we would have an extra CB, AND an unleashed full destroyer Kante to cover the gaps

plus the 3 OTHER MF'ers to press higher, and both the wingers too

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49 minutes ago, Vesper said:

But we would have an extra CB, AND an unleashed full destroyer Kante to cover the gaps

plus the 3 OTHER MF'ers to press higher, and both the wingers too

Everything can be made to sound right in theory as each system has its strengths and ideal scenarios, but when I close my eyes and imagine us playing this way I see many diagonal balls destroying our flanks, and I also wouldn't want to make tracking back and defending one of Hazard's priorities again.

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30 minutes ago, manpe said:

Everything can be made to sound right in theory as each system has its strengths and ideal scenarios, but when I close my eyes and imagine us playing this way I see many diagonal balls destroying our flanks, and I also wouldn't want to make defending one of Hazard's priorities again.

I would love to hear Sarri's thoughts on this

 

Kante is the key, he is so unique I think he would just wreak havoc to the point where diagonals wouldn't matter, as we also have an extra CB to cover the flanks

the overload pressure on the opposing team, I would think, would be overwhelming

I don't think Hazard would have that much more defensive responsibility as we would have the other 2 MF'ers to give width defensive as well, with Jorginho floating in a regista role, waiting for the ball to set up play

he would get the ball from either the front 5

or Kante behind/beside/in front of him (Kante can appear to be in 3 places at once after all, IN HIS OLD ROLE, lolol)

OR

one of the 3 CB's (who also give width to our flanking cover)

I soo want to pick Sarri's brain on this!! LOLOLOLOL

I am really good at spatial envisioning (not just in footie) so my wife and I have been talking about thsi for a month plus before I dropped it in here

I can find NO trace on the web about a  3-1-3-3  (or another variant we came up with, 3-1-2-1-3 (which would have double registas  (backed up by Kante again and giving additional MF deep covering width as they (the 2 registas) would play a partitioned (ie. half the field) Jorginho role) and an pure floating trequartista feeding the front three (thus the 2-1 in bold) Call it a 3-1-3-3 with a more pronounced forward triangle in MF (the trequartista being the tip of the MF spear)  and then another (the front 3) triangle, which would be either inverted (wingers ahead of the CF) or forward thrusting (CF ahead of the wingers) depending on the game play situation leading up to the ball being in that last 3rd of the pitch

in either (they are VERY similar)  formation, the entire team would act with an accordion-like compression/relaxation action, and rotated to cover, so I truly think width issues would be solved

 

 

 

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