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Unionjack

Jorginho

Started by Unionjack,

569 posts in this topic
3 hours ago, El P. said:

Too good to be true...

His football IQ is imposing. Both game dictating, predicting open spaces and positioning himself while defending. He is not the strongest or the fastest, but workrate is there, running is there, and really big footballing brain is there.

I think he is good enough to play in midfield two. Hell, even Cesc sometimes played in midfield two, why couldn't this guy? Miles ahead of Cesc. And also, why the hell we have three CB-s if we cannot afford one midfielder like this?

(And, as far as I know, he is playing with Hamsik and some other DMF in midfield. You think Hamsik is helping more in defense than Willian or Pedro? Really doubt it.)

IMO Kante-Jorginho wont work. Kante likes to roam aroud and Jorginho isnt your typical destroyer. 

We need a DM that stays back and protects the line of defense.

Without DM, they just roll through the middle.

Unless we suddenly start pressing like mad, then it would work, but with current work ethic, there would be too much open space in middle without proper DM, something that was exploited this year without Matic.

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18 minutes ago, BlueLyon said:

Nope, he is done.

At very best a sub and option against shit sides. If we want to move forward as a club, Cesc got to be out.

He is midfielder, but doesnt know how to defend, how to lead, how to motivate, how to sacrifice himself for the team, how to shoot, how to set tempo. He is slow and absolute piss under pressure. Cant take corners, cant take set pieces. 

He had marvelous  pass, but that went out of the window too.

I do think he was pretty damn effective last season coming off the bench fresh when opposition defences were tiring and falling deeper which gave him the time and space to create and do damage. I think he could fulfil this option again next season, but definitely shouldn't be starting most games for the same reasons highlighted, he just isn't mobile and strong enough to start regularly in midfield. He looks tired and fatigued at the moment, and his creativity has severely suffered this year as a result.

Even if we do replace a few players we can't replace everyone, and will need to retain some of our experience throughout the squad. Fabregas will only have one year left on his contract so unless a sizeable offer materialised, I would assume we'll keep him for one more season and let him leave once his contract is up.

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6 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

IMO Kante-Jorginho wont work. Kante likes to roam aroud and Jorginho isnt your typical destroyer. 

We need a DM that stays back and protects the line of defense.

Without DM, they just roll through the middle.

Unless we suddenly start pressing like mad, then it would work, but with current work ethic, there would be too much open space in middle without proper DM, something that was exploited this year without Matic.

I dont have a real footballing brain. But it seems from all Ive read that the managers we have regularly been linked to play a 4 3 3 system so doesn't that mean it wont just be Kante/Jorginho? They ill use probably Baks or even RLC who I'm dubious about.

So those 2 will mean Jorginho can be the playmaking,passomg machine it seems that he is?

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7 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

IMO Kante-Jorginho wont work. Kante likes to roam aroud and Jorginho isnt your typical destroyer. 

We need a DM that stays back and protects the line of defense.

Without DM, they just roll through the middle.

Unless we suddenly start pressing like mad, then it would work, but with current work ethic, there would be too much open space in middle without proper DM, something that was exploited this year without Matic.

They would share defensive responsibilities. Kante would roam around less. He wouldn't even need to do it in that extent, if ultra-creative Jorginho is in the team... We could turn Jorginho into what was Xabi Alonso. And I repeat, we have THREE central defenders, let's not be so afraid of defensive duties...

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 If we actually want to play possession football then our 3 man midfield needs to have atleast 2 creative players in it. We already have Kante as the "destroyer". There really is no room for another detroyer or even a box to box player.

A 4-2-3-1 would, imo, be our best bet as it would allow us to field a team capable of playing possession football with only 2 new players.(Jorginho and Martial)

5af6af4a36290_lineup(4).png.4435b9b0e3da592e0a2a7e333650099b.png

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4 minutes ago, Belgiannutt said:

 If we actually want to play possession football then our 3 man midfield needs to have atleast 2 creative players in it. We already have Kante as the "destroyer". There really is no room for another detroyer or even a box to box player.

A 4-2-3-1 would, imo, be our best bet as it would allow us to field a team capable of playing possession football with only 2 new players.(Jorginho and Martial)

5af6af4a36290_lineup(4).png.4435b9b0e3da592e0a2a7e333650099b.png

This is no 3-man midfield. This is 4-2-3-1. Hazard would never go back to help midfield, he is an attacker, he is more striker than midfielder...

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Just now, El P. said:

This is no 3-man midfield. This is 4-2-3-1. Hazard would never go back to help midfield, he is an attacker, he is more striker than midfielder...

Debatable. Formations are fluid depending on the phase of the game the team is in.

 In a 4-2-3-1 you'd regularly find the nr 10 dropping into midfield to linkup with the other midfielders. Essentially making it no different to the 4-3-3.

Look at the 2 lineups below, both are the 4-2-3-1 but in different phases of the game. The first one is when we're building up from the back the second is when we're defending. 

Only real difference is that the 10 has a more clear attacking role while the 8 would have a more defensive role to balance that out.

Hazard is an attacking midfielder imo. He likes dropping deep, he likes passing the ball around. His off the ball movement mainly consists of either dropping deep or roaming in the central areas with the occasional run in behind.

 5af6b1c76821e_lineup(2).png.d3513bebba89d110e8bf1c26de3e9893.png5af6b4161bd80_lineup(3).png.d1353b2e6cbbf36b5c938664daf8c6e4.png

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22 minutes ago, Belgiannutt said:

Debatable. Formations are fluid depending on the phase of the game the team is in.

 In a 4-2-3-1 you'd regularly find the nr 10 dropping into midfield to linkup with the other midfielders. Essentially making it no different to the 4-3-3.

Look at the 2 lineups below, both are the 4-2-3-1 but in different phases of the game. The first one is when we're building up from the back the second is when we're defending. 

Only real difference is that the 10 has a more clear attacking role while the 8 would have a more defensive role to balance that out.

Hazard is an attacking midfielder imo. He likes dropping deep, he likes passing the ball around. His off the ball movement mainly consists of either dropping deep or roaming in the central areas with the occasional run in behind.

Well, I strongly disagree. I don't think Hazard is that much of a passer, I think he should be closer to goal, linking up, dribbling and scoring. And he is too tactically immature for playing midfielder. Why tie him up? Man needs to have free role, that's why #10s are worlds for themselves, and that's why I never consider them midfielders, and that's why formation 4-2-3-1 exists - to have two tactically mature, physically good midfielders, who will cover up for those 3+1 upfront.

I mean, ok, some teams are playing 4-2-3-1 with let's say Casemiro, Modrić and Isco. But Modrić and Isco are world-class technicians, if you have players like those you play possession based football. Even if we bring Jorginho, that wouldn't be enough for us to do that, with Willian/Pedro/Martial, I don't trust either of them. We would still need to be very compact to cover up for our offensive deficiencies. I would rather have one of Willian/Pedro/Martial, switch to 3-4-3 and play Moses as RWB to balance everything out.

But, if we bring Mahrez, let's say, than I would give it a try.

Like Conte said - you need to tailor formation to players you have. If you have Hazard, you play either 4-3-3 with him on the left, or you play 4-2-3-1 if you want him as a number #10, depending on kind of midfielders you have.

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16 minutes ago, El P. said:

Well, I strongly disagree. I don't think Hazard is that much of a passer, I think he should be closer to goal, linking up, dribbling and scoring. And he is too tactically immature for playing midfielder. Why tie him up? Man needs to have free role, that's why #10s are worlds for themselves, and that's why I never consider them midfielders, and that's why formation 4-2-3-1 exists - to have two tactically mature, physically good midfielders.

I mean, ok, some teams are playing 4-2-3-1 with let's say Casemiro, Modrić and Isco. But Modrić and Isco are world-class technicians, if you have players like those you play possession based football. Even if we bring Jorginho, that wouldn't be enough for us to do that, with Willian/Pedro/Martial, I don't trust either of them. We would still need to be very compact to cover up for our offensive deficiencies. I would rather have one of Willian/Pedro/Martial, switch to 3-4-3 and play Moses as RWB to balance everything out.

But, if we bring Mahrez, let's say, than I would give it a try.

Like Conte said - you need to tailor formation to players you have. If you have Hazard, you play either 4-3-3 with him on the left, or you play 4-2-3-1 if you want him as a number #10, depending on kind of midfielders you have.

I agree with you that Hazard should be playing as a 10 in a free role it's just that i consider a 10 in a 4-2-3-1 to be part of the midfield. That's why i referred to it as a 3 man midfield. 

For me that free role also allows him to drop into  midfield, when neccessary, to link up with the rest of the team, aswell as stay high up the pitch and roam and interchange with the other attackers. 

A number 10 for me is as much part of the front 4 as he is of the midfield 3. 

 

I disagree. If we want to play possession then we're going to have to commit to it. We might get ours asses kicked from time to time but that's the only way we're going to grow and develop our possession game. 

Simply sticking in a more defensive player for "balance" isn't the way forward imo.

I don't see why we wouldn't be compact in this formation ? 

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1 hour ago, Belgiannutt said:

I disagree. If we want to play possession then we're going to have to commit to it. We might get ours asses kicked from time to time but that's the only way we're going to grow and develop our possession game. 

Simply sticking in a more defensive player for "balance" isn't the way forward imo.

I don't see why we wouldn't be compact in this formation ? 

I think 4-2-3-1, with 3 offensive guys behind striker (not some Lingaard shit who is almost full back), can only be compact with two midfielders which are both very-good to great defensively. Eg. Wanyama and Dembele, Mascherano and Xabi, Vidal and Xabi etc.

I am not saying team cannot be great without that, it's just not compact then. But, some teams doesn't need to be compact. :D

I highly doubt we should be pushing for being possession based team... only if new manager comes, one who would have agreement with club about bringing possession based players. We are still miles away from being possession based team, based on the players we have, and one Jorginho wouldn't change that.

But, with him we could be MORE possession based, I agree with that, but not enough to be called possession based. One healthy balance between compact and possession based team would satisfy me.

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6 hours ago, El P. said:

This is no 3-man midfield. This is 4-2-3-1. Hazard would never go back to help midfield, he is an attacker, he is more striker than midfielder...

Hazard was going deep to collect the ball alot because we dont have anyone else that can drive the ball from midfield to attack. But he didnt help defensive duties indeed.

I dont see him in 3 man midfield though, should play either on wings, behind striker or #10. He isnt #8 althrough he can get pick the ball in midfield and push forward by dribbling or passing diagonaly forward.

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45 minutes ago, BlueLyon said:

Hazard was going deep to collect the ball alot because we dont have anyone else that can drive the ball from midfield to attack. But he didnt help defensive duties indeed.

I dont see him in 3 man midfield though, should play either on wings, behind striker or #10. He isnt #8 althrough he can get pick the ball in midfield and push forward by dribbling or passing diagonaly forward.

Thats why we desperately need someone like Jorginho who can do it.

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He is City bound. Remember when players wanted to come here and getting them wasnt a problem at all. 

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Just now, DDA said:

He is City bound. Remember when players wanted to come here and getting them wasnt a problem at all. 

It's a myth we use to miss out on targets.

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This could be controversial but if we don't get Sarri as our manager(looking highly unlikely) is Jorginho someone we absolutely need? He is a pass master who needs a particular type of system to be effective. Pep plays that system, we do not. I do not expect him, nor was he a particularly high target for me unless we secured Sarri.

I compare him to someone like Jean Seri, Seri is more useful to us as he is more mobile and has a knack for a long range goal while still providing tempo control and passing. 

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1 hour ago, Tomo said:

It's a myth we use to miss out on targets.

We didn't get everyone we went for but it felt like we had alot more pulling power before now. The start of Romans Era, the revolution was an exciting prospect for any aspiring footballer. I'm sure players look at how we hire and fire thus resulting in instability in the dressing room, then look at what others are doing and would prefer their projects.

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10 minutes ago, DDA said:

We didn't get everyone we went for but it felt like we had alot more pulling power before now. The start of Romans Era, the revolution was an exciting prospect for any aspiring footballer. I'm sure players look at how we hire and fire thus resulting in instability in the dressing room, then look at what others are doing and would prefer their projects.

Or clubs like City and Utd throw a ton of money at the problem and see if it sticks. If you scout well enough there's no reason to pay out loads of money. Also, we have a myriad of young talent, some of which are on loan currently. Frustrates me why people always want us to pay out ungodly amounts of money on young, unproven talent when we have our own. 

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1 hour ago, It's too big said:

Or clubs like City and Utd throw a ton of money at the problem and see if it sticks. If you scout well enough there's no reason to pay out loads of money. Also, we have a myriad of young talent, some of which are on loan currently. Frustrates me why people always want us to pay out ungodly amounts of money on young, unproven talent when we have our own. 

I don't think we need to spend big amounts of money on young, unproven talent at all. We have that, like you said. What we need are World Class, proven talents in certain areas. 

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