Ross Barkley

[Superblue 6,331]

1 hour ago, DYC. said:

I was arguing Pizy on his talent level, not his possible effectiveness at RWB.

Of course he's better footballer than Moses. But everyone went crazy about Moses at first and now I constantly see comments about Moses being average, which he's always been.

I personally don't believe in the so-called magic of Conte. He can't make a player better than he is. But yeah, you would imagine him to function better in a superior unit. That's if he adapts to the role though. I have my doubts about his stamina levels. It's a high energy role and he's never been a high energy player. I also wonder about his tactical awareness and his personal willingness to play the role, but we'll see if he joins.

I don't think its about Conte making a player better, it's about him finding the right formation, tactics and fit to bring more out of players.

Moses is an average winger, his end product isn't good enough and he's not defensively solid enough as a full back. However it's clear that his pace, power and energy suit him as a wing back, whilst his offensive and defensive abilities are both of a sufficient standard for the position without excelling.

Last year brought Luiz's game up a level, Hazard was back to his best, Cahill probably had his best season at Chelsea, Alonso silenced doubters, Pedro, the list goes on.

He clearly has an eye to identify talents in players that perhaps others don't that will suit the system that he wants to use for the club. Kante, Luiz and Alonso proved to be excellent buys last season and Morata, Bakayoko and Rudiger look like they will also be good buys based on their promising starts. Hopefully if we are to buy the likes of Ox and Barkley they will have the same impacts.

[milka 3,305]

 

[BlueStorm1003 539]

We've got a fantastic medical department, so the injury could really be a blessing in disguise, in terms of price.

I certainly don't see that much in him, but then again, I haven't ´paid much attention to him...

[OhForAGreavsie 5,773]

4 hours ago, The Skipper said:

I don't put Drinkwater who's older than both by a bit under same umbrella as Oxlade and Barkley. There's a clear difference between the former and the latter. Drinkwater never had a high ceiling and won't improve as a player - he's set. Oxlade and Barkley still have untapped potential and have shown flashes of high level ability. They are two of the better English talent out there. The only ones that are better than them are the Spurs lot (-Dier), Rashford, Sterling. They can still improve as players - they aren't "set". We're an English club so we need some good English talent. Maybe they aren't the best but they are at least Chelsea acceptable level. They'll be part of a strong squad in the future. 

Aurier is only going on the cheap because PSG desperately need to sell and he isn't a main 11 player - if he was starting there he'd be costing Spurs £50m imo. It doesn't quite work like that. Barkley at £25m isn't too expensive. Oxlade at £35m - a bit overpriced but Wenger really didn't want to sell so put up an overpriced tag. Drinkwater I've already said a lot on before, don't think he's a good buy - he is not needed if we're signing two English players as well. 

Honestly, for English talent? They're both good players with some interesting qualities. Barkley in particular still hasn't got a set position at all - Conte gets a blank canvas to work with. Both good signings in a crazy market. 

Thanks Skipper.

A few comments prompted by this post and the one to which you replied:-

I'm not convinced that the 'English premium' in the domestic market exists any longer. Well, it exists, but it is balanced by the 'English tax' on the continent. There may be similarly talented players available at around €25m in Europe, but not to Chelsea I fear. Unless the transfer market takes an unexpected turn, Marcos Alonso may proove to be the last first-team player bought from the continent by Chelsea for under £30m.

I like Drinkwater more than many seem to. I would rather see him in our line up than Matic or Mikel and, let's face it, we won a lot of trophies with those two in our side. If I'm right in this assessment, then adding Drinkwater would put us in a better situation than we've been in previously. If I'm right.

Antonio has spoken of creating a new foundation at Chelsea. I wonder if that, and not building a potential Champions League winning side, has been the priority this summer? If that has been the thinking then I support it, and the proposed transfers seem like good steps to get that base in place. The stars can follow. One risk with such a strategy however, and it's a big one, is losing the jewel in our crown. I think we have to demonstrate to Eden this season that we are able to help him achieve his goals. If not, there is a very significant risk he will feel his time is up at Chelsea.

Edited August 30, 2017 by OhForAGreavsie

[OhForAGreavsie 5,773]

4 hours ago, Blue-in-me-Veins said:

Feel like the only person who doesn't rate Ross Barkley at all. Don't see the hype in him at all. And asking Conte to turn two English projects in Oxlade and Barkley is too much imo.

Im my eyes, Chamberlain > Barkley every day of the week. But many advanced stats signal both players do very impressive stuff when on the ball. Oxlade's xG-chain is crazy high. and Barkley complete a high number of difficult passes in the final third.  

Interesting Stat on Barkley: Apparently Ross Barkley created the most goal-scoring chances of any U23 player  across Europe. 

Great info, thank you.

That 'difficult passes' stat about Ross Barkley is surprising to me, and very interesting. This is an area in which we struggle. Even a very slight improvement in this aspect of our play would be huge.

What, may I ask please, is an xG-chain? 

[Reddish-Blue 2,212]

3 minutes ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

Great info, thank you.

That 'difficult passes' stat about Ross Barkley is surprising to me, and very interesting. This is an area in which we struggle. Even a very slight improvement in this aspect of our play would be huge.

What, may I ask please, is an xG-chain? 

Read into this:

http://www.statsbombservices.com/introducing-xgchain

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/07/25/expected-goals-xg-does-show-man-city-should-win-premier-league/

XG means expected goals. 

[Blue-in-me-Veins 4,067]

15 minutes ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

Great info, thank you.

That 'difficult passes' stat about Ross Barkley is surprising to me, and very interesting. This is an area in which we struggle. Even a very slight improvement in this aspect of our play would be huge.

What, may I ask please, is an xG-chain? 

@Reddish-Blue provided some useful resources, but will try and find more tomorrow. 

If your not familiar with xG, it's a metric that measures the likelihood that a shot your team has created will go in goal. 

xG-chain is a measure of how likely a team is to score a goal, when a specific player is involved in a move. AOC's xG chain is high, so whether he's dribbling, delivering the key pass, the "hockey pass", crossing or shooting, there is a greater liklihood that his involvement will lead to a goal. 

Here's is Data Radar. You can pretty much ignore the  template to the right, because he only played 3 games as a CM, and they were against poverty sides. But wingback stats are very promising. 

 

[OhForAGreavsie 5,773]

5 hours ago, DYC. said:

I was arguing Pizy on his talent level, not his possible effectiveness at RWB.

Of course he's better footballer than Moses. But everyone went crazy about Moses at first and now I constantly see comments about Moses being average, which he's always been.

I personally don't believe in the so-called magic of Conte. He can't make a player better than he is. But yeah, you would imagine him to function better in a superior unit. That's if he adapts to the role though. I have my doubts about his stamina levels. It's a high energy role and he's never been a high energy player. I also wonder about his tactical awareness and his personal willingness to play the role, but we'll see if he joins.

I think most people have struck the right balance in their assessments of Victor's contribution last season. Some may have become over excited and failed to see the difference between being given a role which better suits his capabilities, and his becoming a genuinely better player. In the main however, people understand that Victor is exactly the same player he always was. This 'magic wand' theory, which claims that the manager can transform ugly ducklings into beautiful swans, is ridiculous of course. As you pointed out.

Upgrading our RWB was priority number two for me this summer. Since the club has already attempted to address my top priority (CM)  I'm glad RWB is also getting attention.

I like The Ox and have consistently supported the idea that we should target him in the transfer market.  My feeling is that he has the 'in possession' part of a wingback's function under control. The question for him to answer is whether he can bring his out of possession contribution up to the same level but that is an area coaching can help with.

 

[yipo 56]

No point signing him when he cannot play until jan.

[OhForAGreavsie 5,773]

5 hours ago, Reddish-Blue said:

Read into this:

http://www.statsbombservices.com/introducing-xgchain

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/07/25/expected-goals-xg-does-show-man-city-should-win-premier-league/

XG means expected goals. 

Thanks RB

[xPetrCechx 13,546]

However, Chelsea have made a £25m offer for Barkley, who is out injured until December and out of contract next summer. (Daily Mail)

But the Toffees have rejected Chelsea's initial £25m offer for Barkley and are holding out for £40m. (Times - subscription only)

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[Blusan Alamb 295]

 

[OhForAGreavsie 5,773]

6 hours ago, Blue-in-me-Veins said:

@Reddish-Blue provided some useful resources, but will try and find more tomorrow. 

If your not familiar with xG, it's a metric that measures the likelihood that a shot your team has created will go in goal. 

xG-chain is a measure of how likely a team is to score a goal, when a specific player is involved in a move. AOC's xG chain is high, so whether he's dribbling, delivering the key pass, the "hockey pass", crossing or shooting, there is a greater liklihood that his involvement will lead to a goal. 

Here's is Data Radar. You can pretty much ignore the  template to the right, because he only played 3 games as a CM, and they were against poverty sides. But wingback stats are very promising. 

 

Thanks BimV. 

All of these seem potentially informative. I've always taken the view that I'd trust my eyes rather than a table of stats. To be fair however you have to get a really good feel for what the numbers are telling you before you can accurately decide if they are helpful or not.

The xG-Chain/xG-Buildup figures do sound like they are worth measuring but before I put any trust in them I'd want decide if I think they actually are meaningful. It seems highly probable that xG-Chain stats are influenced by the quality of the player's team. It seems likely that a player at City last season would naturally have a better x result than one at a club which struggled to create good chances. Does this mean the real way to use x results is to compare performances of players within the same squad?

What about you, do you have confidence in x results? Do you feel there is a correlation between good players and good 'x' stats?

[Superblue 6,331]

29 minutes ago, xPetrCechx said:

However, Chelsea have made a £25m offer for Barkley, who is out injured until December and out of contract next summer. (Daily Mail)

But the Toffees have rejected Chelsea's initial £25m offer for Barkley and are holding out for £40m. (Times - subscription only)

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
 

We are far better coming in for him in January. £40m for Barkley is a reach at the best of times, let alone with a year left on his contract.

[lucio 5,371]

injured until december? lmao, I thought it was like mid october, fuck this

[mccg 1,528]

4 minutes ago, lucio said:

injured until december? lmao, I thought it was like mid october, fuck this

Cant see him being out that long with a hammy even if it is a grade 3 , i popped my 2 at the same time, grade 2 ,and without any professional rehab i was good to go after 6 weeks! His injury happened i think about six weeks ago so the October timeline seems right to be ready to play again,buy buy buy

[Dimitr 488]

Matt law says 

that we are in ongoing talks to sign him . 

They want 40£M

[Tautvix 1,321]

Just now, Dimitr said:

Matt law says 

that we are in ongoing talks to sign him . 

They want 40£M

I always thought Matt Law is reliable. Changed opinion about him this Summer