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Jason

14. Tiemoue Bakayoko

Started by Jason,

479 posts in this topic
3 hours ago, Leif said:

Ian Wright may not be the sharpest pin in the drawer, but he is an ex footballer, an exceptional one at that, and no ex footballer is wrong 100% of the time. One of those stabs in the dark will hit, and this one has. There is no cliche, there is no cringe necessary, in observing Loftus-Cheek, and seeing he's already doing what we're still waiting for from Bakayoko. For those observations to be pointed out by random forum users, but then highlighted completely separately by an ex-pro, isn't something to ignore. It clearly suggests this pro-Loftus-Cheek side is right about something. Neither side will be entirely wrong.

Add to this that those who put down Bakayoko, on here, don't put down 'people' (as in users or pundits) in general, yet those who claim Bakayoko's good enough, do seem to slander or dismiss people due to their conflicting opinions...which paints a picture of which side is more rational, and perhaps trustworthy in their evaluations. One side is looking at players, comparing traits, and talking stats - the other side is saying 'well i'm right, you're wrong.' Or, they say 'give him time, he has potential', as if that's anything to do with the players we compare today and now. A cop-out comment.
-

Loftus-Cheek brings to the table more qualities than Bakayoko does. (It shouldn't go without saying - though apparently it does, that this & every post on here is 'in my opinion' btw.)
All he lacks which Bakayoko has, is experience, which is clear when you measure their consistency. Bakayoko's consistently average, whereas Loftus-Cheek has high highs and low lows. Nobody can guess who'll turn out the better player, but this season, Loftus-Cheek has been superior.
He's the best player in his team. He was the best player on the pitch for his national side. No? Let me wait for Bakayoko to get a MOTM award (or just put in a MOTM-worthy performance, regardless of award). I might grow a new beard. My toes might grow beards in that time. Because when you watch him, there's not much to get excited about. He doesn't inspire because he isn't great, nor does he show the potential to be, in my opinion. (Which I'll elaborate on if anybody wants. But then we'd miss out on the fun of calling eachother idiots & scoffing at eachother's perspectives.)

I don’t have a problem with your opinion Leif or that you want to share your opinion because what use is a forum if people can’t  have different points of view but my issue was with Ian Wright’s comment, who I think if he had watched Bakayoko more would maybe notice the difference in profiles. Or even if it wasn’t two Chelsea players who knows. Really think he can be a bit of depth when talking about football on ITV or MOTD other than the forward related stuff, maybe a bit of a silly opinion but it’s what I think lol.

I think in Britain (I’m Scottish so have seen pundits being OTT with some players in past, particularly Celtic players) we tend to overrate youngsters but that’s because we, British football, hold ourselves against the highest standards, guys like RLC, Tammy Abraham, Joe Gomez, Phil Foden, Jordan Pickford etc. I believe they’ll go and do good things at club and international level. The same with Scottish players like Andy Robertson (now at Liverpool), Ryan Gauld (maybe not worked out for him yet), Kieran Tierney, Oliver Burke and even for Wales the kid Woodburn, looks an absolute gem as well as our own youngster Ethan Ampadu.

It’s just people tend to get carried away, in the past we’ve seen it with Wilshere, poor guy had immense talent and after a few exceptional matches he was dubbed better than player X or player Y Arsenal signed based on that, who were totally different players. It’s a common thing at club level, people forget Bakayoko is a young man still, so is Ruben but out of the two one is miles ahead in development. Also the whole thing with Ian Wright was comparing an 8 to a 10 (or so I’d say), I was extremely encouraged by what I seen from Ruben along with his minutes at Palace, I hope to see more vs Brazil because I was really skeptical about how good he was a few seasons ago when he was dubbed as ready and whatever. I think Mourinho didn’t help him much, which his dad apparently said in an interview recently but I don’t think getting overly excited and trying to compare him or say he’s better than a fully established Ligue 1 title winner who was a vital part of an extremely functional and exciting team who beat some of Europe’s biggest clubs last season is exactly fair either.

Like I said in my previous post in reply to you I think if he comes back hes more chance being played in the front 3 and will have Willian, Pedro, Hazard, Musonda as competition. Not Bakayoko. Just like for England he will be competing with Lallana, Alli, Barkley etc. who may all be different profiles of players but they are all looking for that same attacking midfield/furthest forward midfielder birth.

Maybe you disagree with all of that or bits of it fair enough. Think I m just enjoying posting a bit more often, some of it could be shite but fuck it 😂

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3 hours ago, Leif said:

Ian Wright may not be the sharpest pin in the drawer, but he is an ex footballer, an exceptional one at that, and no ex footballer is wrong 100% of the time. One of those stabs in the dark will hit, and this one has. There is no cliche, there is no cringe necessary, in observing Loftus-Cheek, and seeing he's already doing what we're still waiting for from Bakayoko. For those observations to be pointed out by random forum users, but then highlighted completely separately by an ex-pro, isn't something to ignore. It clearly suggests this pro-Loftus-Cheek side is right about something. Neither side will be entirely wrong.

Add to this that those who put down Bakayoko, on here, don't put down 'people' (as in users or pundits) in general, yet those who claim Bakayoko's good enough, do seem to slander or dismiss people due to their conflicting opinions...which paints a picture of which side is more rational, and perhaps trustworthy in their evaluations. One side is looking at players, comparing traits, and talking stats - the other side is saying 'well i'm right, you're wrong.' Or, they say 'give him time, he has potential', as if that's anything to do with the players we compare today and now. A cop-out comment.
-

Loftus-Cheek brings to the table more qualities than Bakayoko does. (It shouldn't go without saying - though apparently it does, that this & every post on here is 'in my opinion' btw.)
All he lacks which Bakayoko has, is experience, which is clear when you measure their consistency. Bakayoko's consistently average, whereas Loftus-Cheek has high highs and low lows. Nobody can guess who'll turn out the better player, but this season, Loftus-Cheek has been superior.
He's the best player in his team. He was the best player on the pitch for his national side. No? Let me wait for Bakayoko to get a MOTM award (or just put in a MOTM-worthy performance, regardless of award). I might grow a new beard. My toes might grow beards in that time. Because when you watch him, there's not much to get excited about. He doesn't inspire because he isn't great, nor does he show the potential to be, in my opinion. (Which I'll elaborate on if anybody wants. But then we'd miss out on the fun of calling eachother idiots & scoffing at eachother's perspectives.)

That's your opinion and reasoning, fair enough.  The difference between you and Wright, Wilkins is i highly doubt they had any agenda in mind bar having a dig at the club. If Jake Livermore was from our academy they would have probably claimed he was better than Baka aswell.

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10 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

 

Like I said in my previous post in reply to you I think if he comes back hes more chance being played in the front 3 and will have Willian, Pedro, Hazard, Musonda as competition. Not Bakayoko. Just like for England he will be competing with Lallana, Alli, Barkley etc. who may all be different profiles of players but they are all looking for that same attacking midfield/furthest forward midfielder birth.

Maybe you disagree with all of that or bits of it fair enough. Think I m just enjoying posting a bit more often, some of it could be shite but fuck it 😂

Not so sure RLC is a 10 maybe more of a Lampard position. As front 3 he will probably play the game similar to fab, deeper and narrower. 

Comparing Rlc to bakayoko is difficult, I am not so sure based on last season that Rlc can play in midfield 2. He doesn't run enough for 2 midfield system. 

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Another prolific ex-footballer claiming RLC is at least equal to Bakayoko already. Keep in mind, these people can praise RLC without dragging Bakayoko into it - and they wouldn't drag him into it if he clearly was good enough, would they?

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/660178/Chelsea-Ruben-Loftus-Cheek-Tiemoue-Bakayoko-Crystal-Palace-Loan-Latest-News

Don't think there's a single ex-footballer or current footballer who's paid any compliment to Bakayoko (Makelele saying 'he can become good enough' with his eyes darting about when asked if Baka's good enough, wasn't a compliment.) On top of not having any compliments to say about him, multiple ex-pro's specifically feel the need to highlight that he lacks his touted brilliance.
Nevermind that pretty much every supporter outside of Chelsea that've watched Bakayoko have laughed. I laugh too but with sadness. 

In my mind i want to remain the face of this 'How do we expect to reach the top with Bakayoko in our XI?' brigade, considering I was saying all of this before we signed him. I think I had the piss taken out of me on here :oOver this Everton-tier fraud (though granted, he'd be one of their best players).
I'll take being an apparent idiot whose view is shared by *more and more prolific players. Let's hope the blue tints around here don't lead to complete blindness :drunk:Nevermind the French national coach too. Deschamps must be an idiot along with Ian Wright, right. What would they know about football.

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The main against I held before signing him was his lack of brain. Mentality wins titles, not how strong your passes are or how accurate your shots are. Mentality.
Composure. Leadership. Discipline. Awareness. All of which he lacks, I think.
Never been more annoyed by a signing, other than Rudiger who so far is making me eat my words to a degree.

I promise, within 5 years we'll have the minority become the majority on here, with most begging to replace him. It'll start really stinking when we aren't winning the top prizes, and finally it'll be understood we need more than 'potentially very good' players who've proven nothing. Willian, Bakayoko, yes Rudiger, and so on. Absolute B-list. If he wouldn't start for Real Madrid/Bayern/Barcelona/Juventus/Man City, why the fuck is he good enough for us? :drunk:

 

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1 hour ago, Leif said:

Nevermind the French national coach too. Deschamps must be an idiot along with Ian Wright, right. What would they know about football.

You’re describing Clinton Morrison as a “prolific ex footballer” just to discredit Bakayoko. Ask any French national team football fan whether they think Deschamps is a great coach lol. He took Gignac over Lacazette and Benzema to the Euros too, and doesn’t call up top talents like Martial up either (only did so recently after media pressure). He picks a washed up Payet and Coman ahead of him. If that’s who’s side you want to be on then great. 

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His absence from international duty can only do him a favour right now. He better be with Chelsea and Conte, so he can get fully fit as soon as possible and understand Conte's philosophy of playing. I'm sure if he is patient and shows determination to improve, he will get only better under Conte and could be one of the important players not only in Chelsea, but also in the France team, which is always full of quality players.

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Got his act together in the last two games. I loved how he finally used his strength in duels yesterday. Baka has to kick on from yesterday, he could be a very important player in the future.

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Nothing like facing the mighty West Brom, them with 7 defensive players, to highlight how good our own defensive players are:drunk:

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5 hours ago, Leif said:

Nothing like facing the mighty West Brom, them with 7 defensive players, to highlight how good our own defensive players are:drunk:

Going by your logic I’m assuming you didn’t make much of Cesc, Eden or Morata’s performances either? Seeing as it was only the mighty West Brom. You can only beat what’s infront of you.

Like Beigl mentioned above Baka was even better vs Man United than yesterday.

He hasn’t been great in some matches but he was certainly good in the last 2 games. Again people comparing him to RLC, it’s totally pointless because they aren’t exactly the same position, even then talking about his position hes playing in a wider position for Palace than he has for Chelsea or England. I think people are getting carried away over his performances in the friendly vs Germany. It was impressive but it was also a dead rubber match. I think he looked decent for Palace against Everton at times yesterday too but playing out wide.

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Mo, that's flimsy logic, considering I point out Baka's performances pre-his Chelsea signing, and every game since. Everybody knows that the players you just listed are incredible for us - don't take me for a moron.

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You can't watch a player be consistently average, and then lap on the praise because they were 'good' against West Brom. That's the logic.

Imagine watching Oscar put in the level of performances Bakayoko has, which we did, and then praising him for showing up vs. Hull City. That we did not do.

Similar with Cahill. We know what he is, so we're not going to take 1-off games of his as a measure of his ability.

I'm still seeing a player who releases the ball too late, holds onto the ball too long, and who walks more than runs. When you add barely any assists/goals to that, I'm left debating with people on here how on earth this is someone worthy of our XI (because he's strong apparently. such a rare type of player!:D)
A lot of players can 'create space' and 'charge forward' like he does - while doing a lot more on top of that too. So i'll continue to criticise this transfer, and the lack of critical thinking (IMO, maybe i'm dead wrong) surrounding this. I don't see this heavy investment paying off years down the line. I see time wasted, where we could have had an influential player with leadership, or a youngster of our own bled in. I see no logic in praising him for doing the minimum of what's expected (for some of you guys anyway) vs. a Tony Pulis side.
Where was he vs. Roma? Tied up in Fabregas's dungeon of shackles again? What about City? You measure a player that cost 40m in those games, not these games. He's not Chelsea starter material, and that's the fault of whoever recruited him, no fault of his own. 

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25 minutes ago, Leif said:

You can't watch a player be consistently average, and then lap on the praise because they were 'good' against West Brom. That's the logic.

Imagine watching Oscar put in the level of performances Bakayoko has, which we did, and then praising him for showing up vs. Hull City. That we did not do.

Similar with Cahill. We know what he is, so we're not going to take 1-off games of his as a measure of his ability.

I'm still seeing a player who releases the ball too late, holds onto the ball too long, and who walks more than runs. When you add barely any assists/goals to that, I'm left debating with people on here how on earth this is someone worthy of our XI (because he's strong apparently. such a rare type of player!:D)
A lot of players can 'create space' and 'charge forward' like he does - while doing a lot more on top of that too. So i'll continue to criticise this transfer, and the lack of critical thinking (IMO, maybe i'm dead wrong) surrounding this. I don't see this heavy investment paying off years down the line. I see time wasted, where we could have had an influential player with leadership, or a youngster of our own bled in. I see no logic in praising him for doing the minimum of what's expected (for some of you guys anyway) vs. a Tony Pulis side. 

I thought the logic was you praise players when they perform and criticise them when they don’t? If it matters what team they play against then we’d be may as well judging players based on 10 PL games a season, home and away performances vs City, United, Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool... games where we normally sit compact and based on how people on here react to that and the performances nobody would rate anybody.

I’ll admit if we had the chance to keep Matic and not sign Baka I’d have taken it because Matic is tried and tested, a better player offers more at present etc etc but in an ideal world we’d still have lots of players. I think it’s incredibly stupid to write off a 23 or 24 year old player in his first season at the club. In a new system. He was pretty good against Man United and if RLC flopped against Germany this conversation wouldn’t be happening. Just typical the media stirring the pot as usual. Baka has more PL goals and assists than RLC. Not seen that in any papers

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2 hours ago, Leif said:

You can't watch a player be consistently average, and then lap on the praise because they were 'good' against West Brom. That's the logic.

Imagine watching Oscar put in the level of performances Bakayoko has, which we did, and then praising him for showing up vs. Hull City. That we did not do.

Similar with Cahill. We know what he is, so we're not going to take 1-off games of his as a measure of his ability.

I'm still seeing a player who releases the ball too late, holds onto the ball too long, and who walks more than runs. When you add barely any assists/goals to that, I'm left debating with people on here how on earth this is someone worthy of our XI (because he's strong apparently. such a rare type of player!:D)
A lot of players can 'create space' and 'charge forward' like he does - while doing a lot more on top of that too. So i'll continue to criticise this transfer, and the lack of critical thinking (IMO, maybe i'm dead wrong) surrounding this. I don't see this heavy investment paying off years down the line. I see time wasted, where we could have had an influential player with leadership, or a youngster of our own bled in. I see no logic in praising him for doing the minimum of what's expected (for some of you guys anyway) vs. a Tony Pulis side.
Where was he vs. Roma? Tied up in Fabregas's dungeon of shackles again? What about City? You measure a player that cost 40m in those games, not these games. He's not Chelsea starter material, and that's the fault of whoever recruited him, no fault of his own. 

But in comparison to Bakayoko Cahill and Oscar have been at the club for years, not for some months. Both of them got enough time to prove themselves. Bakayoko started the season injured, had no pre-season and actually had some good cameos/performances against Arsenal, Tottenham and Leicester. Then his form dipped after the Atletico game, but even Azpilicueta made some mistakes and playing next to Fabregas isn´t an easy task for any defensive midfielder. Against United he played really well, Matic couldnt cope with him and Baka should have scored two goals if his finishing wouldn´t have let him down. Not to mention that he just turned 23 in August, so there is naturally room for improvement. 

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3 hours ago, Beigl said:

But in comparison to Bakayoko Cahill and Oscar have been at the club for years, not for some months. Both of them got enough time to prove themselves. Bakayoko started the season injured, had no pre-season and actually had some good cameos/performances against Arsenal, Tottenham and Leicester. Then his form dipped after the Atletico game, but even Azpilicueta made some mistakes and playing next to Fabregas isn´t an easy task for any defensive midfielder. Against United he played really well, Matic couldnt cope with him and Baka should have scored two goals if his finishing wouldn´t have let him down. Not to mention that he just turned 23 in August, so there is naturally room for improvement. 

Honestly. Bakayoko is just 23 and in his first season at Chelsea and he’s comparing him to Cahill and Oscar’s 3rd/4th/5th season here. Won’t even give him a chance. 

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