closed Chelsea v West Ham

[The Chels 2,502]

21 hours ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

Where I think you and I differ is in your comment that the coaches think Brana is a top-class full-back. With respect, you don't know any such thing. You know that they select him, but all you are entitled to assume from that is that they think he is the best option they have.

Quote

Jose Mourinho: "How can I find a better right back than Ivanovic?"

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/jose-mourinho-admits-gap-between-5775856

[OhForAGreavsie 5,773]

1 hour ago, The Chels said:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/jose-mourinho-admits-gap-between-5775856

Has nothing to do with it. You are not so naieve as to take a manager's public comments about his players at face value are you? Just in case you are, let me help you: "My players are always the best in the world even when they are not the best in the world.", Jose Mourinho, 2004.

[Hostedenis 556]

 

Quote

Azpilicueta: "It's time to focus on West Ham, we're very excited."

http://www.chelseafc.com/news/latest-news/2016/08/azpilicueta--making-it-happen.html?extcmp=SOCIA_TW_ENG

You fucking better be, you'll be playing 4 positions!

[The Chels 2,502]

23 minutes ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

Has nothing to do with it. You are not so naieve as to take a manager's public comments about their players at face value are you? Just in case you are, let me help you: "My players are always the best in the world even when they are not the best in the world.", Jose Mourinho, 2004.

Right so Mourinho made Ivanovic his most untouchable player, refused to drop him despite consecutively awful performances, called him one of Chelsea's best ever signings amongst other heavy public praise... But it was only because he had no other option for the fullback positions and in reality he didn't really rate him. Got it. 

[Pizy 17,860]

8 hours ago, Jason said:

I'm sorry but that's a stupid thing to say. Having superior talents doesn't win you games. If that had been the case, we wouldn't have taken just ONE point against West Ham last season!

Yep. Due to the new tv deal the days of clubs like Chelsea/UnitedArsenal etc being able to look past the likes of West Ham are gone. They have the personnel and coaching to beat anyone on their day. Every single PL team big or small can beat one another. Even the newly promoted sides.

 

[OhForAGreavsie 5,773]

25 minutes ago, The Chels said:

Right so Mourinho made Ivanovic his most untouchable player, refused to drop or publicly criticise him, called him one of Chelsea's best ever signings amongst other heavy public praise... But it was only because he had no other option and in reality he didn't really rate him. Got it. 

I think this is pretty straightforward TC but you need context: 

If a manager picks a player you can only assume that it means he thinks that player is the best option he has, not that he thinks the bloke is a world beater. It might mean just that but you can't infer it from the selection.

If a manager says one of his players is a world beater, it might mean just that but you can't assume it. You have to apply your own filter and decide for yourself. When Jose said, in 2004, that Frank Lampard was the best player in the world maybe he meant it but, even before he gave the quote I mentioned above, I never thought so. Did you?

For what it's worth I think Jose does believe that Brana has been one of Chelsea's best signings but can I asume from this that he didn't notice how poorly Brana was playing at the start of last season? How arrogant would I have to be to think that something which was blatently obvious to me, escaped the attenion of any football professional? The answer is that I'd have to be exceptionally arrogant and exceptionally stupid to boot.

As i said earlier in this strand of the conversation, all it is logical for us to assume from the consistent selection of Brana ahead of all alternatives is that the coaches, plural, who made that decision thought he was the best option available to them. If you prefer you might phrase it differently and say they believed Brana was the least bad option, but that just means the same thing.

[Miki-Liki 405]

24 minutes ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

As i said earlier in this strand of the conversation, all it is logical for us to assume from the consistent selection of Brana ahead of all alternatives is that the coaches, plural, who made that decision thought he was the best option available to them. If you prefer you might phrase it differently and say they believed Brana was the least bad option, but that just means the same thing.

So that would mean that he believed that Brana as a right back was a better solution than Luis on the left and Dave on the right. Oh, wait, I forgot that we need 5 or 6 TALL PLAYERS to defend against long balls. Well played, Jose!

[OhForAGreavsie 5,773]

12 minutes ago, Miki-Liki said:

So that would mean that he believed that Brana as a right back was a better solution than Luis on the left and Dave on the right. Oh, wait, I forgot that we need 5 or 6 TALL PLAYERS to defend against long balls. Well played, Jose!

It does mean that yes. It does not mean that you have to like it but someone has to choose. It was the manager's job to make that decision and he made it. If I had the job I may have made different choices but somebody somewhere, maybe you, would now be complaining about me. That's what happens when you make choices. that's just the way it is. Never in a zillion years would i have signed Torres but Carlo wanted him. I was right and knew (in my own mind that is) that I was, but which of us had earned the right not only to make that decision but to be paid for making it?

[Iggy Doonican 4,186]

34 minutes ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

I think this is pretty straightforward TC but you need context: 

If a manager picks a player you can only assume that it means he thinks that player is the best option he has, not that he thinks the bloke is a world beater. It might mean just that but you can't infer it from the selection.

If a manager says one of his players is a world beater, it might mean just that but you can't assume it. You have to apply your own filter and decide for yourself. When Jose said, in 2004, that Frank Lampard was the best player in the world maybe he meant it but, even before he gave the quote I mentioned above, I never thought so. Did you?

For what it's worth I think Jose does believe that Brana has been one of Chelsea's best signings but can I asume from this that he didn't notice how poorly Brana was playing at the start of last season? How arrogant would I have to be to think that something which was blatently obvious to me, escaped the attenion of any football professional? The answer is that I'd have to be exceptionally arrogant and exceptionally stupid to boot.

As i said earlier in this strand of the conversation, all it is logical for us to assume from the consistent selection of Brana ahead of all alternatives is that the coaches, plural, who made that decision thought he was the best option available to them. If you prefer you might phrase it differently and say they believed Brana was the least bad option, but that just means the same thing.

I really don't see your point at all it's almost as if you think managers and coaches are above criticism. You seem to be from the school of thought like Steve Claridge and Robbie Savage that if you haven't played or managed at the top level your point of view is meaningless. Saying Lampard is the best player in the world is just basically a manager bigging up one of his players nothing more. He obviously didn't notice that Ivan was playing terribly or he just picked him out of loyalty or pig headiness Stevie Wonder would have noticed how out of form Ivan was. The last bit I've read a couple of times and I still can't make head nor tail of it. How can you logically say that playing a massively out of form centre back is the best available option when you have a genuine right back in Dave.

[Miki-Liki 405]

22 minutes ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

It does mean that yes. It does not mean that you have to like it but someone has to choose. It was the manager's job to make that decision and he made it.

 

And thanks to that decision, we ended up having the worst fullback duo in the league.

[OhForAGreavsie 5,773]

4 minutes ago, Iggy Doonican said:

I really don't see your point at all it's almost as if you think managers and coaches are above criticism. You seem to be from the school of thought like Steve Claridge and Robbie Savage that if you haven't played or managed at the top level your point of view is meaningless. Saying Lampard is the best player in the world is just basically a manager bigging up one of his players nothing more. He obviously didn't notice that Ivan was playing terribly or he just picked him out of loyalty or pig headiness Stevie Wonder would have noticed how out of form Ivan was. The last bit I've read a couple of times and I still can't make head nor tail of it. How can you logically say that playing a massively out of form centre back is the best available option when you have a genuine right back in Dave.

If you've read many of my posts you'll know that I don't think managers are above criticism. You might even know that I think Claridge needs to learn the meaning of the word misnomer so he can stop misusing it every other sentence and that, like Savage, he is a know-nothing who is unbelievably lucky to keep getting work.

Just today, I have repeatedly said that people can disagree with managerial decisions. I just ask people not to make silly statements. Why do you imagine that you can see the things Brana is doing poorly but that Jose can't? That's beyond ridiculous. Just because Jose does not take that informatin and make the decision you want him to, does not mean that he does no have the info. It just means he does not agree with you about what to do with it. It means that in Jose's opinion, and in Guus's and the temps for that matter, that the other options are even worse.

I've no idea why Jose kept picking Brana, I just have enough respect for other people to know that he must have had his reasons. The two worst managerial decisions in Chelsea history were both made by Carlo, First in turning down Aguero when Roman offered him the Argentine, and then in demanding Torres. I have often expressed the opinion that Carlo is extraordiarrily overrated as a manager and that he was simply lucky to do the double. That does not mean however that I think he's an idiot. He had all of the nformation I had, plus some I did not have, and made his choices. If he watches Brana play, he sees exactly what I see. I can criticise him for what he does after that but I'm not going to pretend to myself that I'm somehow cleverer than he is.

[Iggy Doonican 4,186]

24 minutes ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

If you've read many of my posts you'll know that I don't think managers are above criticism. You might even know that I think Claridge needs to learn the meaning of the word misnomer so he can stop misusing it every other sentence and that, like Savage, he is a know-nothing who is unbelievably lucky to keep getting work.

Just today, I have repeatedly said that people can disagree with managerial decisions. I just ask people not to make silly statements. Why do you imagine that you can see the things Brana is doing poorly but that Jose can't? That's beyond ridiculous. Just because Jose does not take that informatin and make the decision you want him to, does not mean that he does no have the info. It just means he does not agree with you about what to do with it. It means that in Jose's opinion, and in Guus's and the temps for that matter, that the other options are even worse.

I've no idea why Jose kept picking Brana, I just have enough respect for other people to know that he must have had his reasons. The two worst managerial decisions in Chelsea history were both made by Carlo, First in turning down Aguero when Roman offered him the Argentine, and then in demanding Torres. I have often expressed the opinion that Carlo is extraordiarrily overrated as a manager and that he was simply lucky to do the double. That does not mean however that I think he's an idiot. He had all of the nformation I had, plus some I did not have, and made his choices. If he watches Brana play, he sees exactly what I see. I can criticise him for what he does after that but I'm not going to pretend to myself that I'm somehow cleverer than he is.

This is my last word on this but you say'' Why do you imagine that you can see the things Brana is doing poorly but that Jose can't''. I'm hardly alone thinking that am I ?. The I'm not going to pretend to myself that I'm somehow cleverer then he is we are talking about full backs for God's sake have some perspective. As for Aguero being the worse managerial decisions in Chelsea's history is hyperbole. Docherty sending the players home after going on the piss in Blackpool we would have won the league that year. Sexton selling Osgood and Hudson, Bates replacing John Neal with Hollins etc etc.

[OhForAGreavsie 5,773]

16 minutes ago, Iggy Doonican said:

This is my last word on this but you say'' Why do you imagine that you can see the things Brana is doing poorly but that Jose can't''. I'm hardly alone thinking that am I ?. The I'm not going to pretend to myself that I'm somehow cleverer then he is we are talking about full backs for God's sake have some perspective. As for Aguero being the worse managerial decisions in Chelsea's history is hyperbole. Docherty sending the players home after going on the piss in Blackpool we would have won the league that year. Sexton selling Osgood and Hudson, Bates replacing John Neal with Hollins etc etc.

I don't think you are saying what you mean because, as I said right at the start of this, I can't believe you mean that you actually think that you, and all the other people who mean you are not alone, are noticing the bad passes, poor positioning etc, and that Jose does not. How is it possible to think that? You watch the game, he watches the game, several times in fact, are we to imagine that Jose and Guus and the temp all shut their eyes every time Brana is involved in the game? Outside of doing that how can they possibly not process what is happening right before their eyes? .I  think you mean that Jose does not see the same solution as you.

You see dropping Brana as the the soloution, Jose did not. You clearly did not agree with his choice and that's legitimate but you are never going to convince me that Jose did not see the problems. That is just imposible. So I know you are not alone in thinking that Jose's response to what he saw was the wrong one but I hope you are alone in thinking he did not see the good and the bad of the performances in the first place because that just makes no sense. That implies that you understand the dead obvious, basic, things about football better than not just one, but several, professional coaches. Sorry to repeat myself but that notion is ridiculous.

[Iggy Doonican 4,186]

16 minutes ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

I don't think you are saying what you mean because, as I said right at the start of this, I can't believe you mean that you actually think that you, and all the other people who mean you are not alone, are noticing the bad passes, poor positioning etc, and that Jose does not. How is it possible to think that? You watch the game, he watches the game, several times in fact, are we to imagine that Jose and Guus and the temp all shut their eyes every time Brana is involved in the game? Outside of doing that how can they possibly not process what is happening right before their eyes? .I  think you mean that Jose does not see the same solution as you.

You see dropping Brana as the the soloution, Jose did not. You clearly did not agree with his choice and that's legitimate but you are never going to convince me that Jose did not see the problems. That is just imposible. So I know you are not alone in thinking that Jose's response to what he saw was the wrong one but I hope you are alone in thinking he did not see the good and the bad of the performances in the first place because that just makes no sense. That implies that you understand the dead obvious, basic, things about football better than not just one, but several, professional coaches. Sorry to repeat myself but that notion is ridiculous.

I've lost the will to live.

[CurlyHairLikeLuiz 1,625]

10 minutes ago, Iggy Doonican said:

I've lost the will to live.

Can I just ask the question: What makes you believe that you have a better knowledge that the last 3 consecutive coaches that have picked the players they've picked? You don't know what's going on behind the scenes. I suspect the board are just refusing to budge, likely due to the impending building of our new stadium. Arsenal lost their spending power in a similar fashion when the Emirates got the go ahead.

Ivanovic is the best we have at our disposal right now. As sad as that is, there isn't really much free talent in the market that was on Ivanovic's level when he was good, that is also attainable. Carvajal? Expensive, and not exactly setting the world on fire. I can't think of anybody else. Danny Simpson? The only way out I see is trusting Aina and growing him into the role. The spending you're seeing with City is only possible for them because of the way they have cheated FFP, and because their owners are both richer than Roman and also not about to demolish a stadium and do an expensive rebuild of it and the adjacent tube station. I hope to God we get Koulibaly, because otherwise we'll either end up with nothing or mediocre players like Baba.

I also hope that Koulibaly is as good as people think - the General Transfer Talk page jumped to an early (Jan 2012 ish) page and the fact that Gary Cahill was on many people's wish lists goes to show how much desperation can blind people. We should have brought Clyne when he was available, it's too late now.

[Parky 739]

Easy plan of attack for West Ham. Attack and isolate Ivanovic. Hopefully we can score more goals because I feel that Payet is going to rip Ivanovic a new ass hole.

 

[Unionjack 7,531]

2 hours ago, Parky said:

Easy plan of attack for West Ham. Attack and isolate Ivanovic. Hopefully we can score more goals because I feel that Payet is going to rip Ivanovic a new ass hole.

 

But going to be great just to see live football again. And winding up a load of Pikeys is always a good day out.

 

5 hours ago, CurlyHairLikeLuiz said:

I also hope that Koulibaly is as good as people think

Ive looked at all the YTs as I can find abd it just looked to me hes not the best at taking the ball out offencively. Nor the best at medium and long passes. Tho someone who obviously knows more about him than me assures me I'm wrong which I pray to the atoms I am. I just thought he seemed a mirror image of Happy but taller. Happys great at winning balls but just think he needs a partner to take it out and do more than a short pass.

[CurlyHairLikeLuiz 1,625]

Until Zouma is back I'd think it wise to reduce our exposure and not play Fabregas right now. Conte please, please just play Aina. It will be a good experience for him.

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