Buy leaders in the summer

[Muzchap 8,966]

Terry, Lampard, Drogba and Cech were not "leaders" before 2003 or 2004. Football leader are not born as natural leaders. Those players became leaders because they were gifted players, they had strong characters and they were part of winning squad. Being serious or/and angry doesn't mean a player is necessarily a leader.

The problem in current season is not lack of leaders. Think about Robben. In Chelsea and Real Madrid days, Robben was never a leader. You might think about Robben today as leader, but look at his story: gifted player but never a protagonist in Chelsea or Real, called a player that lacked stron character because missed Nedherland chance to win a WC and Bayern's chance to win a UCL at home. He was a punished character, who redeemed himself scoring Bayern's UCL winner.

I don't think you can just "buy" a leader. If a player is a leader elsewhere, it doesn't mean he will be a leader anywhere he goes, unless you are talking about leader in terms of skills, but I don't think you are talking about this kind of leader.

Perhaps you are talking about "experienced" players, who are used to any kind of situation in football, then I might agree in this one. Makelele was perhaps the most important player in that Chelsea midfield.

The problem at the moment, perhaps people from SW6 won't agree, is that Mourinho was not the right man back in 2013, and its as simples as that. The squad that was created at that moment was the most unMourinho as possible. Guardiola's was Abramovich dream, and then he ended up getting Mourinho. That doesn't make any sense, since those managers are the opposite. At the moment it seems the favorites are Guardiola and Simeone. Again two completely different animals.

Mourinho came but never had full control of transfers. No doubt he allowed the likes of Mata, Lukaku, KDB, Luis and Luiz to leave, since they were all useless for Mourinho's taste, but Mourinho never had enough new players. Mourinho was getting rid of players he didn't like, but was just not getting enough mourinhoesque players to replace them.

In August Mourinho said Chelsea had enough money to buy big, and he said at least one defender would come. That never happened, as we know, only Djoboloboji, but I'm sure Mourinho wasn't thinking about him. In the post Southampton match rant, he said "some people should assume responsabilities". I'm sure Mourinho was not satisfied with the quiet transfer market, and he kept saying the whole transfer window that other teams were getting stronger.

What happened? In some cases Mourinho was targetting players that were not avialable at all, like Rooney, in some other cases, the club was not willing to pay the asking price, like Jones.

Instead of buying "leaders", this team need something else, and in my opinion is slowly introducing players like RLC. I'm not talking about starting then in a away game against Manchester when the team is almost in the relegation zone, and getting players from key positions: DM, one CB and a RB and a LB, and those players should be "experienced" ones, its time to stop the bullshit about only getting u-25 players, but when the team is linked with the likes of Ricardo Teixeira, I don't see anything different hapenning in the future. The team will keep getting attacking players, and will forget about the other areas.

This! Absolutely spot on.

I think the topic should have been 'desire' - you have a bunch of players with enough 'desire' to succeed and 'Leaders' will emerge.

[Special Juan 27,093]

Courtois

Azpilicueta Zouma Stones Alex Sandro/Rodriguez

Matic Barkley

Willian Isco Hazard

Griezmaan

Back to natural full backs, a proper play maker and a striker that scores goals consistently and does damage.

[Ossie the King 634]

Says a lot when you said "we were wonderful to watch AT TIMES...". Yes, we played good attacking football under Jose but only for 6 months. Other than that, it was pragmatic stuff - although I'm not sure how one can categorize our football this season. And yes, we need players to improve the style but at the same time, the current group of players we have is pretty much the same as last season and the one who played that good football. Needing new signings is one thing but there's no reason why this team shouldn't be able to play good or at least decent football to watch - like putting opposition under sustained pressure, creating chances, scoring goals and defending properly. Buying players won't help to solve that. It's done through coaching the players and whose job exactly is that? Blaming the board is fine - because they aren't entirely faultless either - but let's not act as if Jose never suggested and got his reinforcements - just look at Cuadrado, Salah, Falcao to begin with.

Hard to say who exactly were his signings and not. Salah fits into that 'young players' mould you described earlier, and we made a profit off of him. As for the football, clearly the players we had couldn't maintain it for a whole season which is why we needed to add to the squad. In the summer we simply didn't. We replaced players with inferior players in most cases and didn't actually add a single additional player to the squad, in my opinion. That's criminal.

That is seriously a poor excuse. We all face pressure in our life but there's a right and wrong way to go about handling yourself. Jose is a man with plenty of experience and knowledge and yet every time, he needs to create controversy. Even when the pressure is already on, he likes to add more fuel to the fire. Why? You only have to look at this season, when we were already in crisis, he continued to create more drama - with the club, players, media, referees etc. He should and must know better. Other successful managers like Fergie also experienced that kind of pressure before but he didn't go about his business like the way Jose did, certainly not in the over the top manner.

I can remember Fergie making some laughable statements at times, but Jose did take it a step further and we're all aware of his personal problems with his father. You may think that saying he's human is a poor excuse but I think the older you get, the more you're aware of people's limitations and breaking points. It's not a sexy thing to talk about in sport and it doesn't fit into 140 characters but we're dealing with humans here and they will err.

Oh we have seen the team play attacking football under Jose but we only saw that for 6 months and some matches here and there down the years. It's not consistent Like it or not, he's a pragmatic manager who doesn't adopt an attacking approach and if he could bore his way to a 1-0 win every week, think he would do it. And you're right in saying football is ultimately about winning but people would expect at least some form of entertainment to go along with it.

And yet we sell out every week. If the crowd are unhappy with winning 1-0 every week then I'd get your point, but that isn't evident is it?

Why talk about Guardiola and La Masia? Bayern don't have an academy like La Masia and yet that didn't stop Guardiola from promoting youth and tweak, improve the playing style of the club. He's far more adaptable than people think he is.

Bayern have a good youth system, but they also have a stranglehold on German football such that they can acquire almost any young talent in the league that they want.

You might say that he's more adaptable but that's something we need to see in practice isn't it? I actually think City have gone about laying the foundations for his arrival perfectly which is why he'll end up there in my opinion.

Wow. That's deep...

If you have strengths, then you maintain it and try to make it even better. If you have weaknesses, then you work on it and change. If you continue allow those weaknesses stay in you and do not adapt, then you won't move forward and become better. Instead, you regress.

What's with the snark? We're all Chelsea supporters so why throw in comments like that?

[Ossie the King 634]

Terry, Lampard, Drogba and Cech were not "leaders" before 2003 or 2004. Football leader are not born as natural leaders. Those players became leaders because they were gifted players, they had strong characters and they were part of winning squad. Being serious or/and angry doesn't mean a player is necessarily a leader.

The problem in current season is not lack of leaders. Think about Robben. In Chelsea and Real Madrid days, Robben was never a leader. You might think about Robben today as leader, but look at his story: gifted player but never a protagonist in Chelsea or Real, called a player that lacked stron character because missed Nedherland chance to win a WC and Bayern's chance to win a UCL at home. He was a punished character, who redeemed himself scoring Bayern's UCL winner.

I don't think you can just "buy" a leader. If a player is a leader elsewhere, it doesn't mean he will be a leader anywhere he goes, unless you are talking about leader in terms of skills, but I don't think you are talking about this kind of leader.

Perhaps you are talking about "experienced" players, who are used to any kind of situation in football, then I might agree in this one. Makelele was perhaps the most important player in that Chelsea midfield.

The problem at the moment, perhaps people from SW6 won't agree, is that Mourinho was not the right man back in 2013, and its as simples as that. The squad that was created at that moment was the most unMourinho as possible. Guardiola's was Abramovich dream, and then he ended up getting Mourinho. That doesn't make any sense, since those managers are the opposite. At the moment it seems the favorites are Guardiola and Simeone. Again two completely different animals.

Mourinho came but never had full control of transfers. No doubt he allowed the likes of Mata, Lukaku, KDB, Luis and Luiz to leave, since they were all useless for Mourinho's taste, but Mourinho never had enough new players. Mourinho was getting rid of players he didn't like, but was just not getting enough mourinhoesque players to replace them.

In August Mourinho said Chelsea had enough money to buy big, and he said at least one defender would come. That never happened, as we know, only Djoboloboji, but I'm sure Mourinho wasn't thinking about him. In the post Southampton match rant, he said "some people should assume responsabilities". I'm sure Mourinho was not satisfied with the quiet transfer market, and he kept saying the whole transfer window that other teams were getting stronger.

What happened? In some cases Mourinho was targetting players that were not avialable at all, like Rooney, in some other cases, the club was not willing to pay the asking price, like Jones.

Instead of buying "leaders", this team need something else, and in my opinion is slowly introducing players like RLC. I'm not talking about starting then in a away game against Manchester when the team is almost in the relegation zone, and getting players from key positions: DM, one CB and a RB and a LB, and those players should be "experienced" ones, its time to stop the bullshit about only getting u-25 players, but when the team is linked with the likes of Ricardo Teixeira, I don't see anything different hapenning in the future. The team will keep getting attacking players, and will forget about the other areas.

Character is absolutely the word I'd use. This team to me is lacking players with character.

Lampard and Terry were flawed young kids, but when it came to their football they worked relentlessly on it. They'd stay after sessions, they'd keep their fitness during the summer (JT still does that to this day) and they'd make themselves the best players they could be. They weren't the most naturally talented but they had that drive to outperform what their talents would allow.

We don't have that in our key players now. Eden Hazard has more talent than both but leaves training as soon as possible and lets his fitness go over summer. That is unacceptable to me but it says a lot about the current crop of players that we have. What we need is players with the character required and that's what Jose wanted to bring in this summer.

I think you're right that we had a total disconnect between what the board wanted and what they hired, and when push came to shove they simply didn't back him. I hope Pep embarrasses Roman again and I almost hope we get Rodgers too, because Roman needs it shoved right in his face just how much he's fucked up. And if that doesn't wake him up then I hope the CPO do.

[Jase 43,479]

Hard to say who exactly were his signings and not. Salah fits into that 'young players' mould you described earlier, and we made a profit off of him. As for the football, clearly the players we had couldn't maintain it for a whole season which is why we needed to add to the squad. In the summer we simply didn't. We replaced players with inferior players in most cases and didn't actually add a single additional player to the squad, in my opinion. That's criminal.

Yes, we needed new players in the summer but is that an excuse for the way we've been playing this season? No. The players and Jose have failed miserably in that department.

I can remember Fergie making some laughable statements at times, but Jose did take it a step further and we're all aware of his personal problems with his father. You may think that saying he's human is a poor excuse but I think the older you get, the more you're aware of people's limitations and breaking points. It's not a sexy thing to talk about in sport and it doesn't fit into 140 characters but we're dealing with humans here and they will err.

If what Jose said and did this season was the first or second time he had done it, then I would be inclined to agree with you. But since it's not, then I don't because we have seen him do that so many times over the years - he did the same at Chelsea, at Inter, at Real Madrid and at Chelsea again. Quite frankly, it's pathetic and gets extremely tiresome after some time and that is why the "he's only human after all" excuse (or similar ones) are poor in this situation.

And yet we sell out every week. If the crowd are unhappy with winning 1-0 every week then I'd get your point, but that isn't evident is it?

Using attendance to say fans are happy? That's convincing. Never mind winning 1-0 every week, we're not even winning every week (or most weeks) but I guess the fans are happy because they are filling the stadium.

Bayern have a good youth system, but they also have a stranglehold on German football such that they can acquire almost any young talent in the league that they want.

And we don't have a good youth system? Sure, we're not at La Masia level and there's still a number of good young players in there and they are good young players who have won 4 of the last 6 FA Youth Cups. It's like Gary Neville said last season, you cannot win 4 Youth Cups in last 6 years and not promote youth players into the squad. That's one of the things Jose has failed to do during his time at the club.

[11Drogba 2,000]

I hope Pep embarrasses Roman again and I almost hope we get Rodgers too

Will you become a United fan if Mourinho goes there?

[Fernando 6,375]

Character is absolutely the word I'd use. This team to me is lacking players with character.

Lampard and Terry were flawed young kids, but when it came to their football they worked relentlessly on it. They'd stay after sessions, they'd keep their fitness during the summer (JT still does that to this day) and they'd make themselves the best players they could be. They weren't the most naturally talented but they had that drive to outperform what their talents would allow.

We don't have that in our key players now. Eden Hazard has more talent than both but leaves training as soon as possible and lets his fitness go over summer. That is unacceptable to me but it says a lot about the current crop of players that we have. What we need is players with the character required and that's what Jose wanted to bring in this summer.

I think you're right that we had a total disconnect between what the board wanted and what they hired, and when push came to shove they simply didn't back him. I hope Pep embarrasses Roman again and I almost hope we get Rodgers too, because Roman needs it shoved right in his face just how much he's fucked up. And if that doesn't wake him up then I hope the CPO do.

Yeah but when City won the tittle they did exactly like us and hardly reinforced.

And because of that it was harder for them to retain the title but they didn't fall apart like we did, and don't forget they also have a team full of "mercenaries"

So our summer is not the reason why we was one point above relegation in December.

[Ossie the King 634]

Yes, we needed new players in the summer but is that an excuse for the way we've been playing this season? No. The players and Jose have failed miserably in that department.

It's a contributing factor. The league is hugely competitive and small percentages matter. We got that wrong this year and fell, whilst Leicester got everything right and are top of the league. Over time though you would expect both teams to return to their proper levels, unless you genuinely believe Leicester are a top team and not simply overachieving?

Using attendance to say fans are happy? That's convincing. Never mind winning 1-0 every week, we're not even winning every week (or most weeks) but I guess the fans are happy because they are filling the stadium.

But it's this whole 'entertainment' thing you're talking about. Firstly it's a very narrow definition of the word entertaining because some might find just as much entertainment in a defensive performance as an attacking one, but most importantly there's not much more entertaining than winning. That's what the matches are played for, to determine the winner. It's why we have goals and not judges on the sidelines scoring the performance.

And we don't have a good youth system? Sure, we're not at La Masia level and there's still a number of good young players in there and they are good young players who have won 4 of the last 6 FA Youth Cups. It's like Gary Neville said last season, you cannot win 4 Youth Cups in last 6 years and not promote youth players into the squad. That's one of the things Jose has failed to do during his time at the club.

And I agree that we have an issue with developing youth, but that's at every team in the league.

If you want to talk about Barcelona and their young players, you have to acknowledge that almost every homegrown player played for another team before Barcelona - Barcelona B. In fact Pep Guardiola started his coaching career there too.

We don't have that type of finishing school for youth players and that is a huge issue facing English football, not just Chelsea. In fact youth development as a whole needs reforming not just at this club but at every top English club, and one coach isn't going to change that.

But that's a massive discussion and it's far easier to blame Jose.

[Ossie the King 634]

Yeah but when City won the tittle they did exactly like us and hardly reinforced.

And because of that it was harder for them to retain the title but they didn't fall apart like we did, and don't forget they also have a team full of "mercenaries"

So our summer is not the reason why we was one point above relegation in December.

They also didn't retain the league though. So what you're saying there's an acceptable level of failure when it comes to underinvesting in a team?

We underachieved this season. If you think that sacking Jose and replacing him with another coach next season whilst failing to support him in the same way will lead to greater success/less failure, then I hope you're right.

Personally I think we're doomed to make the same mistakes. Should be entertaining to watch though.

[Ossie the King 634]

Will you become a United fan if Mourinho goes there?

Why would you ask that of a fellow Chelsea supporter?

[Rom2013 446]

Chelsea doesn't need leaders, CHelsea needs one of two things (or even better both)... Chelsea needs World class players like Ronaldo Messi or Neymar, or even Bale that can score more than 20 goals in League... or CHelsea needs to have a team that run like hell and behaves like a team.

You can check the last winners of the CHampions League and see what it takes to be European Champions...

2009 - Barcelona with a lot of talent and playing like a team.

2010 - Inter. A team playing like a team.

2011 - Barcelona with a lot of talent and playing like a team.

2012 - CHelsea (with a lot of luck, clearly the worst European Champions in the last 20 years).

2013 - Bayern a team that playes like a team,

2014 -. Real Madrid with a lot of quality

2015 - Barcelona with a lot of quality

CHelsea doesn't have the money to buy increadible players anymore, and some of the stars think they shouldn't run... so... it's going to be really dificult.

By the way in the seasons when City had a FFP problem... still spend more money than Chelsea.

[Jase 43,479]

It's a contributing factor. The league is hugely competitive and small percentages matter. We got that wrong this year and fell, whilst Leicester got everything right and are top of the league. Over time though you would expect both teams to return to their proper levels, unless you genuinely believe Leicester are a top team and not simply overachieving?

It's a contributing factor but NOT a decisive one. You can blame the lack of summer transfer activity for all you want but it's no reason why we should be where we are right now. We can struggle and fail to achieve our targets (e.g. winning the league) but certainly not failing till the extent we're sitting just 3 points above the relegation zone.

But it's this whole 'entertainment' thing you're talking about. Firstly it's a very narrow definition of the word entertaining because some might find just as much entertainment in a defensive performance as an attacking one, but most importantly there's not much more entertaining than winning. That's what the matches are played for, to determine the winner. It's why we have goals and not judges on the sidelines scoring the performance.

You are right, football is about winning. But we're one of the biggest clubs in the world and it's only fair that people expect the team to achieve success with style. But too often under Jose, we adopted the pragmatic or even defensive approach in matches like we're some sort of small team. You would be lying if you didn't find our approach and performances turgid to watch at times.

And I agree that we have an issue with developing youth, but that's at every team in the league. If you want to talk about Barcelona and their young players, you have to acknowledge that almost every homegrown player played for another team before Barcelona - Barcelona B. In fact Pep Guardiola started his coaching career there too. We don't have that type of finishing school for youth players and that is a huge issue facing English football, not just Chelsea. In fact youth development as a whole needs reforming not just at this club but at every top English club, and one coach isn't going to change that.

Our youth academy isn't perfect. That much has been said. But it's still good and has some good talent coming through. All they need is for someone to put trust and faith in them and not one who expects the players to be finished articles from the very start and not willing to live through the ups and downs of developing young players.

And seriously, bringing in the whole issue the country and/or other clubs have with youth players really doesn't cut it. It's a different situation with them and it's a poor excuse to justify our bizarre management of players from the academy.

[Ossie the King 634]

It's a contributing factor but NOT a decisive one. You can blame the lack of summer transfer activity for all you want but it's no reason why we should be where we are right now. We can struggle and fail to achieve our targets (e.g. winning the league) but certainly not failing till the extent we're sitting just 3 points above the relegation zone.

It's not a decisive one, but when you begin to lower your expectations it can snowball and become something you can't control.

You are right, football is about winning. But we're one of the biggest clubs in the world and it's only fair that people expect the team to achieve success with style. But too often under Jose, we adopted the pragmatic or even defensive approach in matches like we're some sort of small team. You would be lying if you didn't find our approach and performances turgid to watch at times.

It was, but it was also scintillating at times. Arsenal just beat a poor Newcastle team 1-0 today having beaten City convincingly a week ago. At the end of the season both will be worth three points and if they win the league no-one will give a shit.

Our youth academy isn't perfect. That much has been said. But it's still good and has some good talent coming through. All they need is for someone to put trust and faith in them and not one who expects the players to be finished articles from the very start and not willing to live through the ups and downs of developing young players.

And seriously, bringing in the whole issue the country and/or other clubs have with youth players really doesn't cut it. It's a different situation with them and it's a poor excuse to justify our bizarre management of players from the academy.

You might say it doesn't cut it but I hope no-one with a vested interest in youth development thinks that because it's a major issue. You can't develop a player under one style (and numerous managers) then loan him out to Rotherham and expect consistency of development. Equally whilst it's fair to hope for a fairytale development story of a player that a manager takes a punt on, the margins of success and failure at the top of the game don't always allow for that. Every match counts and matches are won in the fringes of matches, so playing young players does have an immediate impact.

Looking at the issue of our squad, according to the source I just looked at (transferleague) we spent just £30 million Net per season in Jose's time here. City spent almost triple that, United double and Arsenal even spent more than us.

Experts will say you need to add two world class players to the squad to retain the title, broadly speaking. In the summer we made just TWO ADDITIONS to the squad. That's;

Papy Djilobdji

Kenedy

The other players were replacements

Begovic for Cech

Rahman for Luis

Pedro for Cuadrado

Falcao for Drogba

And I'd argue that only Pedro is actually a marked improvement over the player he replaced, whereas every other one is a downgrade.

This summer, we undermined the coach by strengthening a rival and made his squad weaker. That's on top of spending £170 MILLION less than his closest rival in his time at the club. That might now be an excuse for him being just above the relegation zone but I don't know what the board were expecting of him. They established that there was no ambition at this club, so why on Earth shouldn't we be relegation candidates?

[BlueLion. 21,491]

Chelsea doesn't need leaders, CHelsea needs one of two things (or even better both)... Chelsea needs World class players like Ronaldo Messi or Neymar, or even Bale that can score more than 20 goals in League... or CHelsea needs to have a team that run like hell and behaves like a team.

You can check the last winners of the CHampions League and see what it takes to be European Champions...

2009 - Barcelona with a lot of talent and playing like a team.

2010 - Inter. A team playing like a team.

2011 - Barcelona with a lot of talent and playing like a team.

2012 - CHelsea (with a lot of luck, clearly the worst European Champions in the last 20 years).

2013 - Bayern a team that playes like a team,

2014 -. Real Madrid with a lot of quality

2015 - Barcelona with a lot of quality

CHelsea doesn't have the money to buy increadible players anymore, and some of the stars think they shouldn't run... so... it's going to be really dificult.

By the way in the seasons when City had a FFP problem... still spend more money than Chelsea.

I presume you've forgotten about Liverpool fluking their way to the CL in 2005, or maybe Porto the year before?

[Fernando 6,375]

They also didn't retain the league though. So what you're saying there's an acceptable level of failure when it comes to underinvesting in a team?

We underachieved this season. If you think that sacking Jose and replacing him with another coach next season whilst failing to support him in the same way will lead to greater success/less failure, then I hope you're right.

Personally I think we're doomed to make the same mistakes. Should be entertaining to watch though.

Yes their is.

To finish second or even third was not the end of the world.

For us was different because there was no chance of finishing even in top 4.

And then that by December we was one point above relegation zone.

Pellegrini never had city like this even the season that they didn't win it.

[Styles 9,790]

We need better players and a better manager.

Hopefully the stars align and we have a brilliant summer.

[Ossie the King 634]

Yes their is.

To finish second or even third was not the end of the world.

For us was different because there was no chance of finishing even in top 4.

And then that by December we was one point above relegation zone.

Pellegrini never had city like this even the season that they didn't win it.

Pellegrini has never had less than DOUBLE the average net spend of Mourinho each season to back him though.

In the same time he's been at City, they've spent £170 million NET more than us.

We need better players and a better manager.

Hopefully the stars align and we have a brilliant summer.

I agree. But to get there we need better people running the club.

[Fernando 6,375]

Pellegrini has never had less than DOUBLE the average net spend of Mourinho each season to back him though.

In the same time he's been at City, they've spent £170 million NET more than us.

I agree. But to get there we need better people running the club.

So net spend is the excuse?

Then how come all these years Arsenal had a great net spend but they never been in relegation zone like we was all these months?

They always finished top 4.