Willian

[Jase 43,479]

Don't think we played on the counter last season vs Stoke and this season against Everton.

No but there were certainly spaces for us to break into, especially against a possession-based side like Everton, and that's when Willian could cause some damage.

[WNDS 502]

Willian is like so overrated as a no.10 at the moment. He certainly isn't going to turn into some creative machine when he can't create chances on a consistent basis out wide.

Very few posters who are advocating playing him at the no.10 position are actually expecting him to become some sort of creative phenomenon there (as The Skipper has already pointed out). We've observed the style of play that we appear to be trying to adopt this season and have concluded that Willian possesses the best combination of attributes for what is demanded of the player playing the AMC position in this current Chelsea side. I believe that playing Willian in the no.10 position is possibly a way to improve the general performance levels of the team as a whole, rather than simply being for the purpose of allowing Willian to improve his own displays.

Willian is far more capable of leading the press than Fabregas, he is generally steadier in possession than Oscar, he is faster than both those players (which is useful both when attacking and defending), he is a better dribbler than both of them, and he is also more capable of switching across the AM positions than Oscar and Fabregas are. For these reasons, I see him as being able to offer the team a far greater measure of stability and tactical flexibility if he is deployed at the no.10 position; if we want to play a short-passing-based possession game he will be a good fit, if we take an approach based around counter-attacking his pace is extremely useful, if we decide to park the bus completely his defensive commitment and work-rate are invaluable, if we press in an aggressive manner he is one of the players most effective at doing so.

Also, speaking of the AM more generally, I think that it is important for as many of the players in these positions as possible to have enough pace to compensate for the relatively slow Matic-Fabregas pairing behind them; a Hazard-Willian-Cuadrado line-up has this, and it certainly helps that both Willian and Cuadrado possess very good defensive work-rates as well.

[Jase 43,479]

Very few posters who are advocating playing him at the no.10 position are actually expecting him to become some sort of creative phenomenon there (as The Skipper has already pointed out). We've observed the style of play that we appear to be trying to adopt this season and have concluded that Willian possesses the best combination of attributes for what is demanded of the player playing the AMC position in this current Chelsea side. I believe that playing Willian in the no.10 position is possibly a way to improve the general performance levels of the team as a whole, rather than simply being for the purpose of allowing Willian to improve his own displays.

Do people actually believe that or are only advocating that change because Oscar has been below average and Willian (suddenly) has been in good form? I didn't see people were calling for that to happen when Oscar was doing the job well for us.

Willian is far more capable of leading the press than Fabregas, he is generally steadier in possession than Oscar, he is faster than both those players (which is useful both when attacking and defending), he is a better dribbler than both of them, and he is also more capable of switching across the AM positions than Oscar and Fabregas are. For these reasons, I see him as being able to offer the team a far greater measure of stability and tactical flexibility if he is deployed at the no.10 position; if we want to play a short-passing-based possession game he will be a good fit, if we take an approach based around counter-attacking his pace is extremely useful, if we decide to park the bus completely his defensive commitment and work-rate are invaluable, if we press in an aggressive manner he is one of the players most effective at doing so.

Some fair points made there but I don't think he's steadier in possession than Oscar. Both are average of it and prone to misplacing simple passes...unless of course, you are counting Willian passing backwards when his attempt to dribble fails. Moreover, when we come up against teams who park the bus, Willian is arguably the worst of the three. Never mind not possessing the eye to pick out teammates in tight areas, he doesn't even score enough goals (or provide enough assists) to suggest he will do a decent job in that no.10 position. Our approach changes from game to game - be on the front foot against the smaller teams and play on the counter against the bigger ones - and Willian has the qualities as the no.10 with the latter approach but not with the former.

[WNDS 502]

Do people actually believe that or are only advocating that change because Oscar has been below average and Willian (suddenly) has been in good form? I didn't see people were calling for that to happen when Oscar was doing the job well for us.

Some fair points made there but I don't think he's steadier in possession than Oscar. Both are average of it and prone to misplacing simple passes...unless of course, you are counting Willian passing backwards when his attempt to dribble fails. Moreover, when we come up against teams who park the bus, Willian is arguably the worst of the three. Never mind not possessing the eye to pick out teammates in tight areas, he doesn't even score enough goals (or provide enough assists) to suggest he will do a decent job in that no.10 position. Our approach changes from game to game - be on the front foot against the smaller teams and play on the counter against the bigger ones - and Willian has the qualities as the no.10 with the latter approach but not with the former.

For me, as I have mentioned 'ad nauseam' by this point , the main goal when selecting our starting 11 should be that they are a stable and tactically flexible unit, capable of adopting (and adapting to) a number of different playing styles. Our squad, very good though it may be, is not yet so brilliant that we can simply seek to impose our game upon any opposition that we face; almost all of us (including the manager) appear to accept this. We therefore often find ourselves forced to compromise against opposition of a certain quality, and although such pragmatism is justified, I would rather that it didn't come at the expense of almost all our attacking coherence.

Part of the reason as to why we seem so clueless in attack in such matches appears to be because Mourinho does not trust Oscar against top quality opponents, and so insists upon dropping him for Ramires (or Mikel) whilst also moving Fabregas out of the area of the pitch in which he appears to be at his most effective; this simultaneously neuters our pressing AND our ability to retain possession. If this problem arises as a result of Oscar not being trusted to play the no.10 role in most of the 'big games', then surely a better course of action to take would be to try to find a solution that allows us to field the same starting 11 against opposition teams of any calibre, thereby allowing for a greater degree of inherent understanding to develop between the players selected. This would hopefully render them more capable of playing in a variety of different ways according to what the immediate situation demands. I am NOT advocating that we adopt an approach that ignores the need to rotate and use 'squad' players, I'm merely stating my view that our most frequently used starting 11 should ALSO be the one that we employ in the majority of the 'big games' that we play.

I believe that Hazard-Willian-Cuadrado in front of Matic-Fabregas should form this 'genuine first-choice' midfield for the rest of the season. With Matic holding, Fabregas deep in midfield providing creativity, Costa ahead providing the goal-threat, and Hazard/Cuadrado alongside providing spark and unpredictability (as well as our secondary goal/assist threat), what we need most from our CAM is a combination of defensive work-rate, speed, and steady retention of possession that these other players can then use as a platform to work upon. Despite certain notable weaknesses to his game, Willian is the player that I suspect will best fulfill these requirements.

You see, I have to disagree with your assertion that Willian is generally as average in possession as Oscar can be. He has greater upper-body strength, better balance, and better close control than Oscar, and so is not only therefore harder to ease off the ball in tight physical situations than Oscar is, but is also more capable of bringing the ball under control quickly to allow himself to make the pass. In the recent game against Everton, Willian was played centrally and was extremely reliable in possession, more so than even an in-form Oscar tends to be. His possession-game suffers when he's playing on the right because he is right-footed, and this does not allow him to play his 'natural' game as easily as he would be able to when playing on the left or through the centre. At Shakhtar he played a similar left-winger/no.10 hybrid role to the one Hazard currently plays for us, and it's much harder for a right-footed player to play in that same style from the right; how many times has Hazard made the switch to the right during one of our games and looked less dangerous than when he's playing from the left? Quite often I'd say.

And.... urgh. What a disgustingly long post . Sorry . This is the last that I'm going to contribute to this current topic of discussion (Willian at no.10); I'm done now, I promise .

[The Chels 2,502]

Part of the reason as to why we seem so clueless in attack in such matches appears to be because Mourinho does not trust Oscar against top quality opponents, and so insists upon dropping him for Ramires (or Mikel) whilst also moving Fabregas out of the area of the pitch in which he appears to be at his most effective; this simultaneously neuters our pressing AND our ability to retain possession. If this problem arises as a result of Oscar not being trusted to play the no.10 role in most of the 'big games', then surely a better course of action to take would be to try to find a solution that allows us to field the same starting 11 against opposition teams of any calibre, thereby allowing for a greater degree of inherent understanding to develop between the players selected. This would hopefully render them more capable of playing in a variety of different ways according to what the immediate situation demands. I am NOT advocating that we adopt an approach that ignores the need to rotate and use 'squad' players, I'm merely stating my view that our most frequently used starting 11 should ALSO be the one that we employ in the majority of the 'big games' that we play.

I believe that Hazard-Willian-Cuadrado in front of Matic-Fabregas should form this 'genuine first-choice' midfield for the rest of the season. With Matic holding, Fabregas deep in midfield providing creativity, Costa ahead providing the goal-threat, and Hazard/Cuadrado alongside providing spark and unpredictability (as well as our secondary goal/assist threat), what we need most from our CAM is a combination of defensive work-rate, speed, and steady retention of possession that these other players can then use as a platform to work upon. Despite certain notable weaknesses to his game, Willian is the player that I suspect will best fulfill these requirements.

I'm sure we tried something very similar away to City with Cesc next to Matic, Ramires on the right wing and Willian playing through the middle. It didn't turn out very well. In fact Oscar, Cesc and Willian have all played as the number 10 in one big game or another this season with the team performance differing very little, which is why I believe the issues we see in such games (i.e. regularly appearing so clueless in attack) extend further than the personnel. That said it seems like we tried to go for both Tiago and Sneijder in the summer window. Those two playing at CM and CAM respectively would IMO have helped alleviate a lot of the big-game problems we've seen. It's a pity that neither deal came through.

[WNDS 502]

I'm sure we tried something very similar away to City with Cesc next to Matic, Ramires on the right wing and Willian playing through the middle. It didn't turn out very well. In fact Oscar, Cesc and Willian have all played as the number 10 in one big game or another this season with the team performance differing very little, which is why I believe the issues we see in such games (i.e. regularly appearing so clueless in attack) extend further than the personnel. That said it seems like we tried to go for both Tiago and Sneijder in the summer window. Those two playing at CM and CAM respectively would IMO have helped alleviate a lot of the big-game problems we've seen. It's a pity that neither deal came through.

Ramires, who is not a winger, on the right wing against Man City; another example of disrupting the 'first choice' eleven to better suit whatever game-plan we were trying to implement. I just feel that if we didn't find ourselves needing to make such fundamental changes to the starting line-up when facing high-quality opposition, the team would play with a greater coherence.

Look at Atletico Madrid, for example; the first-choice line-up against most opposition (Moya, Juanfran, Miranda, Godin, Siqueira/Ansaldi (the weak links), Tiago, Gabi, Koke, Arda Turan, Griezmann, Mandzukic) is also the the line-up they use most frequently against the 'big teams' they face. It's currently the same with Barcelona now that Enrique has abandoned his previous habit of changing the starting line-up pretty much every game, with Bravo, Alves, Pique, Mascherano, Alba, Busquets, Rakitic, Iniesta, Neymar, Messi, Suarez starting all the most important games, whether they are against 'big teams' or not. I don't think that it's entirely a coincidence that these two teams just 'happen' to have been obtaining some of the most impressive results in European football since the turn of the year. Other teams that have been employing their most frequently-used line-ups in the big games (player fitness permitting) are Wolfsburg, PSG, Real Madrid, Lyon etc. The domestic performances of Wolfsburg and Lyon have been particularly notable this season.

Ultimately, the strategic and tactical compromises made by most of these teams to deal with specific opposition threats are often devised to work within the already-established framework of a starting 11 that is comfortable playing together. Most of their managers DO NOT tend to make changes that completely rupture the teams' usual systems of play, and so when they are in possession and attacking their moves are slick, quick, and generally effective (even when the attacking approach has been altered somewhat). In contrast with this, Mourinho DOES make such changes when faced with high-quality opposition (e.g. Ramires on the wing, moving our deep-lying playmaker away from his zone of influence etc.) and the team suffers for it. True, we haven't lost a 'big game' so far this season, but we are seeing far too many of them end in draws during which we've only managed a few shots during the entire game and many of our best chances have come from set-pieces. If we continue to put in these types of performances in such games, then we will eventually come across a 'big team' that is in genuinely good form on the day and we WILL lose (possibly quite heavily).

And no, this post is not dealing directly with the topic of Willian at Downing Street (it's related to that, but also close to being genuinely off-topic), so I haven't gone back on what I wrote at the end of my last post (yet) .

[iseah100 5,612]

These last few pages have had some ridiculously long posts.

[kellzfresh 7,226]

Ramires, who is not a winger, on the right wing against Man City; another example of disrupting the 'first choice' eleven to better suit whatever game-plan we were trying to implement. I just feel that if we didn't find ourselves needing to make such fundamental changes to the starting line-up when facing high-quality opposition, the team would play with a greater coherence.

Look at Atletico Madrid, for example; the first-choice line-up against most opposition (Moya, Juanfran, Miranda, Godin, Siqueira/Ansaldi (the weak links), Tiago, Gabi, Koke, Arda Turan, Griezmann, Mandzukic) is also the the line-up they use most frequently against the 'big teams' they face. It's currently the same with Barcelona now that Enrique has abandoned his previous habit of changing the starting line-up pretty much every game, with Bravo, Alves, Pique, Mascherano, Alba, Busquets, Rakitic, Iniesta, Neymar, Messi, Suarez starting all the most important games, whether they are against 'big teams' or not. I don't think that it's entirely a coincidence that these two teams just 'happen' to have been obtaining some of the most impressive results in European football since the turn of the year. Other teams that have been employing their most frequently-used line-ups in the big games (player fitness permitting) are Wolfsburg, PSG, Real Madrid, Lyon etc. The domestic performances of Wolfsburg and Lyon have been particularly notable this season.

Ultimately, the strategic and tactical compromises made by most of these teams to deal with specific opposition threats are often devised to work within the already-established framework of a starting 11 that is comfortable playing together. Most of their managers DO NOT tend to make changes that completely rupture the teams' usual systems of play, and so when they are in possession and attacking their moves are slick, quick, and generally effective (even when the attacking approach has been altered somewhat). In contrast with this, Mourinho DOES make such changes when faced with high-quality opposition (e.g. Ramires on the wing, moving our deep-lying playmaker away from his zone of influence etc.) and the team suffers for it. True, we haven't lost a 'big game' so far this season, but we are seeing far too many of them end in draws during which we've only managed a few shots during the entire game and many of our best chances have come from set-pieces. If we continue to put in these types of performances in such games, then we will eventually come across a 'big team' that is in genuinely good form on the day and we WILL lose (possibly quite heavily).

And no, this post is not dealing directly with the topic of Willian at Downing Street (it's related to that, but also close to being genuinely off-topic), so I haven't gone back on what I wrote at the end of my last post (yet) .

Very good point that the lineup change spoils our play.

It must be mainly because fabregas is removed from the pivot for defensive reasons that causes it.

But how do we get a strong player who has almost the same vision as fabregas to control the game but still defend athletically like Matic or at least mikel???

When fabregas doesn't play, (against astonvilla) our teamplay suffers, when he isn't in the pivot we can't keep possession. We need to find a way to keep him deep and provide him with protection like Pirlo has.

Vidal - Pirlo - Pogba

Ramires - Fabregas - Matic

If Mourinho can't play a 4-3-3, then we need to find a replacement that can control the tempo and still defend like Matic in the pivot for big games.

We just need to find a way to get more than 6 shots against big teams. We've passed the level of getting only 2shots in a match and hoping one is a goal.

[CurlyHairLikeLuiz 1,625]

But if Willian does track back in the 10 which he does, the defensive frailties of Fabregas are covered. If he's not in the pivot then offensively we completely collapse, so considering that it's worth the risk playing him there at all times IMO. We should put another DM along side him which would alleviate this problem.

[OhForAGreavsie 5,773]

I'm sure we tried something very similar away to City with Cesc next to Matic, Ramires on the right wing and Willian playing through the middle. It didn't turn out very well. In fact Oscar, Cesc and Willian have all played as the number 10 in one big game or another this season with the team performance differing very little, which is why I believe the issues we see in such games (i.e. regularly appearing so clueless in attack) extend further than the personnel. That said it seems like we tried to go for both Tiago and Sneijder in the summer window. Those two playing at CM and CAM respectively would IMO have helped alleviate a lot of the big-game problems we've seen. It's a pity that neither deal came through.

Agree with your overall view but, just to dot the i_s and cross the t_s, I'd say it actually is a personnel issue in the sense that Jose does not have the personnel he needs to solve the problem. I think this is a circle that can't squared which is why I believe our boss deserves a lot of praise for finding solutions that win points, even if not plaudits.

[The Chels 2,502]

Ramires, who is not a winger, on the right wing against Man City; another example of disrupting the 'first choice' eleven to better suit whatever game-plan we were trying to implement. I just feel that if we didn't find ourselves needing to make such fundamental changes to the starting line-up when facing high-quality opposition, the team would play with a greater coherence.

Look at Atletico Madrid, for example; the first-choice line-up against most opposition (Moya, Juanfran, Miranda, Godin, Siqueira/Ansaldi (the weak links), Tiago, Gabi, Koke, Arda Turan, Griezmann, Mandzukic) is also the the line-up they use most frequently against the 'big teams' they face. It's currently the same with Barcelona now that Enrique has abandoned his previous habit of changing the starting line-up pretty much every game, with Bravo, Alves, Pique, Mascherano, Alba, Busquets, Rakitic, Iniesta, Neymar, Messi, Suarez starting all the most important games, whether they are against 'big teams' or not. I don't think that it's entirely a coincidence that these two teams just 'happen' to have been obtaining some of the most impressive results in European football since the turn of the year. Other teams that have been employing their most frequently-used line-ups in the big games (player fitness permitting) are Wolfsburg, PSG, Real Madrid, Lyon etc. The domestic performances of Wolfsburg and Lyon have been particularly notable this season.

Ultimately, the strategic and tactical compromises made by most of these teams to deal with specific opposition threats are often devised to work within the already-established framework of a starting 11 that is comfortable playing together. Most of their managers DO NOT tend to make changes that completely rupture the teams' usual systems of play, and so when they are in possession and attacking their moves are slick, quick, and generally effective (even when the attacking approach has been altered somewhat). In contrast with this, Mourinho DOES make such changes when faced with high-quality opposition (e.g. Ramires on the wing, moving our deep-lying playmaker away from his zone of influence etc.) and the team suffers for it. True, we haven't lost a 'big game' so far this season, but we are seeing far too many of them end in draws during which we've only managed a few shots during the entire game and many of our best chances have come from set-pieces. If we continue to put in these types of performances in such games, then we will eventually come across a 'big team' that is in genuinely good form on the day and we WILL lose (possibly quite heavily).

And no, this post is not dealing directly with the topic of Willian at Downing Street (it's related to that, but also close to being genuinely off-topic), so I haven't gone back on what I wrote at the end of my last post (yet) .

The thing is those teams you mention (Atleti/Barca) rarely change their style of play from the small games to the big games as dramatically as we do and so they don't need to change their usual starting 11. Sure Atletico have less possession against the bigger sides but they play a very similar style and you'll often see them defending with all 10 outfield players behind the ball against smaller sides too, with their last game against Celta Vigo being a prime example of this. In contrast we tend to go from having the majority of possession in the opposition's final third to simply defending ours. That said, I think those teams are able to cope with greater changes in approach while maintaining the same line-up better than we are because of the differences in personnel.

We have used our 'best team' (and formation) in several big games this season - the matches away to United, Liverpool and Tottenham in the league as well as the home match against Liverpool in the COC come to mind. There are a couple of exceptions with Drogba in for Costa v United due to injury, for example, but the core of the team was by and large the same. No team is able to use the exact same 11 every game so I don't think a couple of changes should make that much difference to our attacking play, certainly not as much as it has done. For example Koke got injured very early on in Atleti's 4-0 win over Real but it made no difference. Nevertheless in those games we created more chances than we have in other big games this season but we were defensively all over the shop - and Cesc playing at CM is partly (but definitely not entirely) the reason for that. We need him playing next to Matic against the smaller sides as he helps dictate the play but when we want to defend and play on the counter then he is not such a good option there, which necessitates changes all over the midfield. He has certainly improved his tactical discipline but he is still not great at it, he can be rather easily taken out of the game and it is far too easy to run at and dribble past him, which spells chaos for our defenders who need as much protection as possible.

Like you say we don't (and IMO can't) have one consistent line-up for both small games and big games but I think that's probably how Jose would have envisioned it going. I don't really expect that to change.

It must be mainly because fabregas is removed from the pivot for defensive reasons that causes it. But how do we get a strong player who has almost the same vision as fabregas to control the game but still defend athletically like Matic or at least mikel???

This, basically. And well we tried to buy that player in the summer but it didn't materialise.

[Styles 9,790]

Willian was amazing in the second half. He was involved in a lot of our best moves.

Some of his dribbling and passing in the build-up of moves was superb.

Loved the Brazil and Chelsea flag combo too

[The Skipper 20,593]

Willian was amazing in the second half. He was involved in a lot of our best moves.

Some of his dribbling and passing in the build-up of moves was superb.

Loved the Brazil and Chelsea flag combo too

Glad I wasn't the only one that commended his second half performance.

[kellzfresh 7,226]

Willian was amazing in the second half. He was involved in a lot of our best moves.

Some of his dribbling and passing in the build-up of moves was superb.

Loved the Brazil and Chelsea flag combo too

All of a sudden he was spreading perfect passes to hazard during our counters. It was good to see

[Barbara 15,149]

Willian was amazing in the second half. He was involved in a lot of our best moves.

Some of his dribbling and passing in the build-up of moves was superb.

Loved the Brazil and Chelsea flag combo too

Glad I wasn't the only one that commended his second half performance.

which was a nice change after literally destroying every attack we had in the first half except that one long ball to Hazard. He was painful to watch in the first. And I think he improved some in the second, but nothing eye-catching imo.

But as it's suitable, his first half performance is completely forgotten and disregarded and his second half performance overrated. nothing new.

If we're going to have an upgrade from what we currently have to #10 position, I can't see Willian being the answer. He had a straw of 3-4 good games in the attack (regardless of the position), the rest were either average (like against Spurs, as we should consider his whole presentation as he didn't set the world alight in the second) or just poor.

The only reason he still starts our every match is because he's the best WB we have in the team and he covers Ivanovic in the flank so Iva can move inside the box when opposition crosses or progresses in the attack through our right side. Denying that is pretty partial imo.

[WNDS 502]

which was a nice change after literally destroying every attack we had in the first half except that one long ball to Hazard. He was painful to watch in the first. And I think he improved some in the second, but nothing eye-catching imo.

But as it's suitable, his first half performance is completely forgotten and disregarded and his second half performance overrated. nothing new.

If we're going to have an upgrade from what we currently have to #10 position, I can't see Willian being the answer. He had a straw of 3-4 good games in the attack (regardless of the position), the rest were either average (like against Spurs, as we should consider his whole presentation as he didn't set the world alight in the second) or just poor.

The only reason he still starts our every match is because he's the best WB we have in the team and he covers Ivanovic in the flank so Iva can move inside the box when opposition crosses or progresses in the attack through our right side. Denying that is pretty partial imo.

People are giving more weighting to his display in the second-half over that of the first-half because we won the game and he helped us to do so. He was involved in the build-up to both of our goals, created a number of openings for Hazard (two of which involved excellent switches of play), and defended well. Despite a poor showing in the opening 20-30 minutes, he managed to sort himself out for the rest of the game and his overall contribution to both the result and the performance was undoubtedly positive; a solid 7/10 in my opinion (the rating that I would give to the team as a whole). If we had lost, then there would be more focus upon the mistakes he made, as would be the case with almost every one of our players in this game.

[LAB 1,030]

Willian played well. 1st half offered the usual defensive stuff and 2nd half he completed his performance by contributing offensively. He has clearly stepped up lately and it shows. His passing is directed with more intend and he thinks and reacts more quickly than before. I like his work currently (always liked it tbh, but now more than ever) and imo if he stays consistent with what he is doing now it's going to be a really good scenario to go and grab someone like Reus to complete our trio for our strongest line up instead of sticking with Oscar as primary no10.

Hazard - Willian - Reus would look very good for example.

[Vybz Kartel 1,613]

I hope we can upgrade on him and let him go because its clear his not good enough to warranty a continued starting place. Guys like Damian Duff were less talented but had the heart and desire which seems like guys like Willian dont have. Yes a couple of good games here and there is not good enough on the overall considering his price tag and what we can get for considerably less.