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Jason

22. Willian

Started by Jason,

5,642 posts in this topic
16 minutes ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

Yep, it would be a matter of moving them forward from their opening negotiating position. If all of this is real, then appreciating there is bound to be some negotiating is all the more reason to avoid the prematurely frustrated posts about a 'stupid' board turning down xyz offer. 

I know you are not saying that about me

I have not yet said 'stupid board' as I am sure the cash was really low

now, if I see we turned down £20m or more plus Malcom

I cannot promise I will at that point hold my tongue, lol

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26 minutes ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

His potential is high. We've seen some tremendous displays from Willian, including a number of them last season. In the first leg vs. Barca, for example, he was out of this world. That is his potential but, I always say never buy a player on the strength of his maximum output. Instead, judge a player on what you consider his average level to be because, by definition, that's what you're going to get from him most of the time.

All we then need to factor in to get a good understanding of what Maurizio said is that managers always want to look for positive public comments about their players. Positive but believable, even for players they are happy to sell but who might still be with the squad when the window shuts.

I think we need to make room for more nuanced consideration of manager talk.

Potential to me is not the next couple games

its the longer term

and Willian will be 31yo next summer

he will soon start to slide downhill, in 2 years or so be a shell of what he is now (which is pretty shit in my book)

I just want him gone for fair value

We can have these philosophical convos on here all we want

but week in, week out, I turn on telly and see him fuck up (with a lot of help from others, he is not the sole issue) the team

it is hard to deal with football lately, bad football, and he and the fullbacks and shit strikers are to blame mostly

there is no way I can take another 2 and half years of him as one of our starting wingers, zero chance

same goes for Alonso

I draw the line on those 2

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49 minutes ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

 

Sarri's comment is balanced and well judged. It appreciates that Willian is still his player, so it's positive but, by saying Willian is performing below his potential, it includes the implication that the Brazillian must do better.

It is also, by the way, exactly the right thing to say if Maurizio wants to encourage Barcelona to bid for the player. It's not treating them like idiots by pretending Willian has been setting the world alight. Instead it implies that he sees more than enough upside for the player's output to make him manager want to keep the attacker. These are just the things a potential buyer would like to believe.

Do you really think that Sarri talks in such a subtle way? And that his lines are so wide for you too read so much between them?

Sarri strikes me very much as a meat and 2 veg kinda straight talking guy. He may lean on the side of caution when talking in interviews anout transfers of players not our own but I think that Willian is one of the 1st names on his team sheet and he really doesn't want to lose him sadly.

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Willian performance in the CL last season against Barca is so freaking overrated, never seen a player performance be so highly thought of because he hit the crossbar multiple times. He was seen as very unlucky that he should have had a hat trick, the fact he hitted the crossbar imo was more lucky than anything. Willian goal record over his career speaks volume, i don't think he has ever had a hat trick in his entire senior career and can't recall any multiple goals game in his career. 

 

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this is why i TRULY think Willian is overrated 

Callejon

Napoli RW

and a year and a half OLDER than Willian

fea84a8c2a9f9b31b8bf79d6a8b1905d.png
PLUS

his assists

in same year order

11

7

13

17

17

so in 5 years

74 goals 65 assists!

average of 28 total goals produced per year for 5 straight years

 

Willan has but 88 goals in around FOURTEEN seasons! that's bloody 546 games! Many in shit leagues

in last 5 full seasons

44 goals   42 assists

17 total produced per year

and that is inflated (and for his career) by so so many non league goals and assists against shit teams

he has NEVER scored more than EIGHT league goals in a year

his yearly league totals

e623d875031bcd75528f9fdea8c75cb5.png

I rest my case in terms of stats

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27 minutes ago, Clockwork said:

a player performance be so highly thought of because he hit the crossbar multiple times

This is what I mean'We can put soun on any player and make them sound either fantastic or bloody useless.

We could turn thoughts on Morata about and say he is unlucky to miss so many chances and so many open goals.

But surely a MAIN job of a forward is to provide balls thru speed and width via crosses and cut backs and provide goals and assists.

Willan doesn't do this often enough to select him.

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15 minutes ago, Unionjack said:

Do you really think that Sarri talks in such a subtle way? And that his lines are so wide for you too read so much between them?

Sarri strikes me very much as a meat and 2 veg kinda straight talking guy. He may lean on the side of caution when talking in interviews anout transfers of players not our own but I think that Willian is one of the 1st names on his team sheet and he really doesn't want to lose him sadly.

I actually think that Sarri is quite calculated in what he says to the press.  For example, I don't think he makes demands to the board about getting "his" players, but I definitely think he's in contact with them about what kinds of players he wants, especially since he's all about the fit in his system.  I think he keeps telling the press that he's "not interested in the transfer market, and doesn't know what's going on".  If he does it all the time, it means he never has to talk about transfers.  After Cesc had his public good-bye on the pitch, but his transfer to Monaco wasn't 100% done, before the next match Sarri said he had a slight injury so he wasn't available.  There's no way he didn't know anything about Pulisic.  He makes it sound like he's the last to know, even after the fans.

In other ways, he's very straight forward.  When asked why CHO wasn't playing or not playing or whatever, he was very truthful.  If an 18 year old is starting regularly for a club like Chelsea, we'll be discussing him for ballon d'or in a few years time (so let's just hold our horses a bit).

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2 minutes ago, Sideshow Luiz said:

I actually think that Sarri is quite calculated in what he says to the press.  For example, I don't think he makes demands to the board about getting "his" players, but I definitely think he's in contact with them about what kinds of players he wants, especially since he's all about the fit in his system.  I think he keeps telling the press that he's "not interested in the transfer market, and doesn't know what's going on".  If he does it all the time, it means he never has to talk about transfers.  After Cesc had his public good-bye on the pitch, but his transfer to Monaco wasn't 100% done, before the next match Sarri said he had a slight injury so he wasn't available.  There's no way he didn't know anything about Pulisic.  He makes it sound like he's the last to know, even after the fans.

In other ways, he's very straight forward.  When asked why CHO wasn't playing or not playing or whatever, he was very truthful.  If an 18 year old is starting regularly for a club like Chelsea, we'll be discussing him for ballon d'or in a few years time (so let's just hold our horses a bit).

But the Poison Dwarfe said in a interview that Sarri was never interested in the players coming in at transfer time. He said he would meet with him with a list and he asked his opinions on each but never went to ADL and wanted certain players. More interested in the here and now.

This is why I question how devious he is in interviews. I really dont think he is too pushy.

And maybe that was a big part of why he was signed after how vocal Mou and Conte was about not getting the right players.

 

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1 hour ago, Unionjack said:

But the Poison Dwarfe said in a interview that Sarri was never interested in the players coming in at transfer time. He said he would meet with him with a list and he asked his opinions on each but never went to ADL and wanted certain players. More interested in the here and now.

This is why I question how devious he is in interviews. I really dont think he is too pushy.

And maybe that was a big part of why he was signed after how vocal Mou and Conte was about not getting the right players.

 

TBH, other than (and this is a huge one) another GREAT CB to pair with Koulibaly (hello Skriniar), that team was pretty complete and deep. You could argue for a true, first class CF too, as Milik has been blääääää. They should have moved for Edin Dzeko the split second they knew they were selling fat boy.

But they were (and are) pretty damn loaded from top to bottom. Age will fuck them soon though, but certainly not when Sarri was there.

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1 hour ago, Sideshow Luiz said:

I don't believe anything ADL says either, though.

I don't think Sarri is Conte or Mou-esque in his pursuit of players.  But, I certainly think he's told people what he's looking for.

I do hope he has but not knowing we bought Pully makes me feel dubious buddy.

But I dont expect much more out of our board TBH.

I remember when Mou came back and there was the reports of the details in his contract stating he would have no powers what so ever in players coming or going.. We might as well castrate all managers, tie their hands behind them and change their title o coach.

I would dearly love if we had a system where the scouts,DOF,manager had regular ,meetings and they all got on the same page to choose who,where,why we want new lads. I dont see it happening any time soon tho

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14 minutes ago, Unionjack said:

I do hope he has but not knowing we bought Pully makes me feel dubious buddy.

But I dont expect much more out of our board TBH.

I remember when Mou came back and there was the reports of the details in his contract stating he would have no powers what so ever in players coming or going.. We might as well castrate all managers, tie their hands behind them and change their title o coach.

I would dearly love if we had a system where the scouts,DOF,manager had regular ,meetings and they all got on the same page to choose who,where,why we want new lads. I dont see it happening any time soon tho

This is what I mean though, he keeps saying that he doesn't know anything about the market, and now that's his answer whenever anyone asks.  But, Pulisic's dad (I guess he's also called Pulisic) says that they met.

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/1069984/Chelsea-transfer-news-Christian-Pulisic-Mark-Pulisic-Maurizio-Sarri

He may not have exactly known that he was being bought that day, but he did admit that he knew about him as a target.  But, he kind of gives the impression that it's all out of left-field.  I'd say that Sarri knows all about our targets and which ones he'd like more than others, then it's up to the board to bring in the best fit for the best value.  He knows all about Barella, Parades, Higuain, whoever and he's given his feedback on all of them.  He's probably given his feedback on guys that we aren't linked with, maybe Werner, Piatek, whoever.  He knows we need a striker.  He's more or less admitted that he's told the club that we need a striker.  I'd be shocked if he hasn't given the board his opinion on a number of potential targets.

 

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1 hour ago, Unionjack said:

I would dearly love if we had a system where the scouts,DOF,manager had regular ,meetings and they all got on the same page to choose who,where,why we want new lads. I dont see it happening any time soon tho

This seems like such an obvious set up.  Keeps everyone on the same page and pulling in the right direction.  

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13 hours ago, Vesper said:

Potential to me is not the next couple games

its the longer term

and Willian will be 31yo next summer

he will soon start to slide downhill, in 2 years or so be a shell of what he is now (which is pretty shit in my book)

I just want him gone for fair value

We can have these philosophical convos on here all we want

but week in, week out, I turn on telly and see him fuck up (with a lot of help from others, he is not the sole issue) the team

it is hard to deal with football lately, bad football, and he and the fullbacks and shit strikers are to blame mostly

there is no way I can take another 2 and half years of him as one of our starting wingers, zero chance

same goes for Alonso

I draw the line on those 2

I see what you mean, and in the way you mean it, I agree with you. I don't think that's the sense in which Maurizio meant it however, and it's not the way I meant it either.

I, and Maurizio I think, meant it in terms of Willian's peak performance level, you mean it in the sense that his peak level can improve, that he can become better than he's ever been. I say again that I 100% agree with your position on that. In terms of his existing peak however Willian is below, way below, what we've seen from him at his best. I for one would dance in the streets if we regularly saw from Willian what we saw from him against Barca. Indeed we wouldn't be having this conversation about him. We'd either be unhappy that the club did not resist an even bigger offer from Barca, or we'd be worrying about how long Willian could maintain his level and fretting about how we were going to replace him when the time came.

Whether Willian will ever recapture that form can be debated, but I think it's reasonable for the manager to allude to that level of expectation when talking about his potential.

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14 hours ago, Unionjack said:

Do you really think that Sarri talks in such a subtle way? And that his lines are so wide for you too read so much between them?

Sarri strikes me very much as a meat and 2 veg kinda straight talking guy. He may lean on the side of caution when talking in interviews anout transfers of players not our own but I think that Willian is one of the 1st names on his team sheet and he really doesn't want to lose him sadly.

Yes, I do think Maurizio speaks in a considered way. All intelligent people in positions of authority do. As to whether he wants to keep Willian I think that's about options. Until the club gets him a suitable alternative I think he'd rather retain Willian, and try to coax good performances out of him.

While it is the case that Maurizio has said lately that he now sees CHO as a useable option, previously the manager has looked at his squad and selected Willian ahead of others. No matter what the buzz on social media thinks about it, that must mean Maurizio has preferred Willian to other choices. He's entitled to back his own judgement and, if asked to give up one of his preferred options without acquiring a replacement, any manager is going to resist.

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13 hours ago, Vybzkartel said:

Kevin Durant, NBA player

Thank you. I've never heard of him, but then I've never taken an interest in the NBA.

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29 minutes ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

I see what you mean, and in the way you mean it, I agree with you. I don't think that's the sense in which Maurizio meant it however, and it's not the way I meant it either.

I, and Maurizio I think, meant it in terms of Willian's peak performance level, you mean it in the sense that his peak level can improve, that he can become better than he's ever been. I say again that I 100% agree with your position on that. In terms of his existing peak however Willian is below, way below, what we've seen from him at his best. I for one would dance in the streets if we regularly saw from Willian what we saw from him against Barca. Indeed we wouldn't be having this conversation about him. We'd either be unhappy that the club did not resist an even bigger offer from Barca, or we'd be worrying about how long Willian could maintain his level and fretting about how we were going to replace him when the time came.

Whether Willian will ever recapture that form can be debated, but I think it's reasonable for the manager to allude to that level of expectation when talking about his potential.

I agree with this summation, I just hope (for all our sakes) he can crank it up for the next 6 months, if not longer. Most evidence seems to point to this not happening. Let us hope I am wrong.

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14 hours ago, Vesper said:

I know you are not saying that about me

I have not yet said 'stupid board' as I am sure the cash was really low

now, if I see we turned down £20m or more plus Malcom

I cannot promise I will at that point hold my tongue, lol

If I see that reported, and if I believe it to be true, then I'd like the offer to be accepted for sure. If it isn't then I'd be keen to know why. I am however always open to the reality that the club have more information than I do, and to the possibility that if I knew what they did, I might just agree with them.

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