Lewis Baker

[Madmax 9,219]

What's the best way to develop Lewis Baker?

[Gilvorak 3,734]

Stop making excuses for Jose's atrocious youth development record. The only youth player he's developed over the years that wasn't a multi-million pound transfer is Davide Santon. I think if he was truly interested in giving these players chances then Baker would have played against Bolton in a near-worthless competition like the COC.

EDIT: Lythell makes several good points in that article. Interested to learn Baker trained with England's senior squad earlier, delighted for him.

[Tomo 21,681]

Stop making excuses for Jose's atrocious youth development record. The only youth player he's developed over the years that wasn't a multi-million pound transfer is Davide Santon. I think if he was truly interested in giving these players chances then Baker would have played against Bolton in a near-worthless competition like the COC.

EDIT: Lythell makes several good points in that article. Interested to learn Baker trained with England's senior squad earlier, delighted for him.

You do realise two teenagers were played against Bolton don't you?

Mikel, Varane, Huth, he brought Sinclair on in a title decider.

The pressure at the top level is huge, he is no worse than most in the current climate.

[iseah100 5,612]

Stop making excuses for Jose's atrocious youth development record. The only youth player he's developed over the years that wasn't a multi-million pound transfer is Davide Santon. I think if he was truly interested in giving these players chances then Baker would have played against Bolton in a near-worthless competition like the COC.

EDIT: Lythell makes several good points in that article. Interested to learn Baker trained with England's senior squad earlier, delighted for him.

He also has to win, if it were up to some on here Baker would start every other game and Boga would be "given a chance". Jesus, do people want Chelsea to win trophies, or have all the academy players play?

[killer1257 3,282]

He also has to win, if it were up to some on here Baker would start every other game and Boga would be "given a chance". Jesus, do people want Chelsea to win trophies, or have all the academy players play?

I would be very happy if RLC gets 1 or 2 PL starts,but even that is very unlikely.I do not understand how other top teams can produce so many talents,even though our Academy is not that bad,you know.Yes,we want to win titles,but I do not think that giving one player just one PL start will ruin our title chance.If yes,we just do not deserve the title.Furthermore,I do not say that they have to play against Man City,although RLC for example made Yaya Toure made look like a youth player in that friendly match .I say that RLC should get 1 match against QPR or a weak team like that.RLC would be a good Matic back up,while Baker could be a good Fabregas back up.

[Gilvorak 3,734]

You do realise two teenagers were played against Bolton don't you?

Mikel, Varane, Huth, he brought Sinclair on in a title decider.

The pressure at the top level is huge, he is no worse than most in the current climate.

We're talking about developing homegrown players into important squad players. Varane and Mikel were both multi-million pound buys. They hardly count.

Zouma has several seasons of experience under his belt. While Ake was starting games for us under Rafa. 6 apps in 12/13, just 2 games since.

[Gilvorak 3,734]

He also has to win, if it were up to some on here Baker would start every other game and Boga would be "given a chance". Jesus, do people want Chelsea to win trophies, or have all the academy players play?

Yes because Chelsea are the only club in the World that competes for titles. Even Real Madrid have a better youth record than we do.

if it's too much of a risk to start some of the kids against a Championship club at home in a worthless competition like the League Cup when exactly will they get chances? We have the best academy in the country and we're not using it.

[Tomo 21,681]

We're talking about developing homegrown players into important squad players. Varane and Mikel were both multi-million pound buys. They hardly count.

Zouma has several seasons of experience under his belt. While Ake was starting games for us under Rafa. 6 apps in 12/13, just 2 games since.

Youth is youth, just because they cost a lot doesn't mean the manager had to play him, how many times did we see Lukaku under AVB? How many times did Fergie play Zaha?

[Viper22 2,418]

Yes because Chelsea are the only club in the World that competes for titles. Even Real Madrid have a better youth record than we do.

if it's too much of a risk to start some of the kids against a Championship club at home in a worthless competition like the League Cup when exactly will they get chances? We have the best academy in the country and we're not using it.

Are you sure Real Madrid have a better record than we do? Seeing as you seem to only be referring to home grown non-bought talent then Notable graduates from Real Madrid's youth academy in the last 15 years are:

Roberto Soldado (16 games for Real before being sold to Getafe for just €4M), Juanfran (6 games for Real before being released to Osasuna on a free), Juan Mata (0 games for Real before being released to Valencia on a free), Jese Rodriguez (19 senior games in 3 years), Javi Garcia (18 games for Real before being sold to Osasuna for €2.5M), Jose Callejon (0 games for Real in first stint with club before being released to Espanyol on a free), Deigo Lopez (2 games for Real in first stint with club before being sold to Villareal for €6M), Dani Carvajal (36 appearances for Real), Alvaro Morata (37 games for Real before being sold to Juventus for €20M) & Alvaro Arbeloa (2 games for Real in first stint with club before being sold to Deportivo for €1.4M).

Lots of great players there that they either sold on the cheap or released. I'd hardly say that's more successful than us. Only Carvajal and Morata can really be seen as successes, so 2 in the last 15 years. The others could be genuinely seen as pretty big failures considering how good most of them are now.

[lionsden 4,689]

These youth players can never win (metaphorically speaking). Before they are sent out on loan, they are considered not ready for first team challenge. During their loan spell, regardless of how well they perform, their performance is marginalised with the belief that they have only managed to excel in an inferior league and/or inferior team as playing for Chelsea is a different ball game and therefore still largely untested (How will they become tested or proven if not by actually playing them in the first team). You can send them on loan forever but ultimately the only surefire way of knowing if they can hack it is by giving them first team opportunities to showcase what they can do and I don't mean useless 4 minute cameos either.

Then they get sent on more loans to get them "more first team ready" and along the way 4 things usually happens that ensures they never make it at the club. A) The club changes manager,

B, Established and more favoured stars and new emerging talents are brought in to fill the position that was originally intended for these players and C) they end up on a couple of bad loans where they either aren't getting playing time or become a victim of bad tactics and philosophy and D) They become disillusioned with the constant loans and lose motivation.

Now some might say we finally have problem A sorted but even then we are still left with problems B, C and D

The same thing that happened to Josh is happening with Chalobah right now, Kalas might experience the same fate and I suspect that it could have worked out differently if we had kept the loan to an absolute minimum and actually blooded them into the team early. (Carlo had the right idea for Josh but unfortunately . . . . . .)

I have asked the same question before without anyone giving me satisfactory answer. What are we doing differently to ensure the mistakes we have made in the past in regards to youth development and transition to the first team doesn't happen again. Letting them rot on the bench without growing the courage to play them (see Baker,Christensen and Ake to a lesser extent) won't cut it either. There has to be a middle ground. It's too convenient to simply lay the whole blame at the feet of these youngsters. It's a vicious cycle and we are bound to keep going round and round in circle without making any real progress.

[The Skipper 20,593]

I have asked the same question before without anyone giving me satisfactory answer. What are we doing differently to ensure the mistakes we have made in the past in regards to youth development and transition to the first team doesn't happen again. Letting them rot on the bench without growing the courage to play them (see Baker,Christensen and Ake to a lesser extent) won't cut it either. There has to be a middle ground. It's too convenient to simply lay the whole blame at the feet of these youngsters. It's a vicious cycle and we are bound to keep going round and round in circle without making any real progress.

I agree with what you're saying, but simple answer to that is the fact that we lacked managerial stability. Honestly, now that's a bit more solidified at the moment, I expect to see a big improvement on this.

[Viper22 2,418]

These youth players can never win (metaphorically speaking). Before they are sent out on loan, they are considered not ready for first team challenge. During their loan spell, regardless of how well they perform, their performance is marginalised with the belief that they have only managed to excel in an inferior league and/or inferior team as playing for Chelsea is a different ball game and therefore still largely untested (How will they become tested or proven if not by actually playing them in the first team). You can send them on loan forever but ultimately the only surefire way of knowing if they can hack it is by giving them first team opportunities to showcase what they can do and I don't mean useless 4 minute cameos either.

Then they get sent on more loans to get them "more first team ready" and along the way 4 things usually happens that ensures they never make it at the club. A) The club changes manager,

B, Established and more favoured stars and new emerging talents are brought in to fill the position that was originally intended for these players and C) they end up on a couple of bad loans where they either aren't getting playing time or become a victim of bad tactics and philosophy and D) They become disillusioned with the constant loans and lose motivation.

Now some might say we finally have problem A sorted but even then we are still left with problems B, C and D

The same thing that happened to Josh is happening with Chalobah right now, Kalas might experience the same fate and I suspect that it could have worked out differently if we had kept the loan to an absolute minimum and actually blooded them into the team early. (Carlo had the right idea for Josh but unfortunately . . . . . .)

I have asked the same question before without anyone giving me satisfactory answer. What are we doing differently to ensure the mistakes we have made in the past in regards to youth development and transition to the first team doesn't happen again. Letting them rot on the bench without growing the courage to play them (see Baker,Christensen and Ake to a lesser extent) won't cut it either. There has to be a middle ground. It's too convenient to simply lay the whole blame at the feet of these youngsters. It's a vicious cycle and we are bound to keep going round and round in circle without making any real progress.

You're right in every way, but in reference to the Kalas thing: would you rather him be kept at the club this season? JT and Cahill have been pretty good and neither have been even slightly injured. If Kalas had stayed then he would have probably been 4th/5th choice CB (depends on Ivan) and he wouldn't have got much game time... I don't think that would've been good for him or us.

Now whether we should have signed Zouma and instead given his spot to Kalas is another debate entirely...

I don't think anyone is happy with our youth system or the way we go about integrating youth into our first team, but I do feel like it is STARTING to change for the better. With Jose hopefully (this part is vital) staying for at least another 3/4 years then we will have the managerial stability like you said. And I do feel like as players like JT, Mikel, Luis, Ramires & Drogba leave we will replace them with youth players such as Kalas, Chalobah, Ake, Baker & Bamford. If at least 2/3 of them aren't integrated in the next 2/3 years then Mourinho will have failed. It's a big ask but something we need to start doing.

I guess i'm saying that i'm hopeful that Ake and Baker training with the first team is a good step and I hope to see Kalas, Chalobah and maybe Bamford return from their current loans and get incorporated into the first team also. Next 2 summers will be key for us.

[lionsden 4,689]

I agree with what you're saying, but simple answer to that is the fact that we lacked managerial stability. Honestly, now that's a bit more solidified at the moment, I expect to see a big improvement on this.

Managerial stability isnt enough though. These youngsters are not getting first team opportunities and that doesnt seem like changing anytime soon considering the average age of the current squad is one of the youngest in europe. Boga,baker,christensen,rlc et al are basically doomed.

[lionsden 4,689]

You're right in every way, but in reference to the Kalas thing: would you rather him be kept at the club this season? JT and Cahill have been pretty good and neither have been even slightly injured. If Kalas had stayed then he would have probably been 4th/5th choice CB (depends on Ivan) and he wouldn't have got much game time... I don't think that would've been good for him or us.

Now whether we should have signed Zouma and instead given his spot to Kalas is another debate entirely...

I don't think anyone is happy with our youth system or the way we go about integrating youth into our first team, but I do feel like it is STARTING to change for the better. With Jose hopefully (this part is vital) staying for at least another 3/4 years then we will have the managerial stability like you said. And I do feel like as players like JT, Mikel, Luis, Ramires & Drogba leave we will replace them with youth players such as Kalas, Chalobah, Ake, Baker & Bamford. If at least 2/3 of them aren't integrated in the next 2/3 years then Mourinho will have failed. It's a big ask but something we need to start doing.

I guess i'm saying that i'm hopeful that Ake and Baker training with the first team is a good step and I hope to see Kalas, Chalobah and maybe Bamford return from their current loans and get incorporated into the first team also. Next 2 summers will be key for us.

I have got to disagree here. Kalas is a very talented player that has proven himself in the dutch leqgue and even in the epl albeit to a much lesser extent and ivanovic is pretty much our first choice right back which should have meant kalas as the third choice CB behind the ageing JT and cahill. JT at his age shouldnt have to play every epl and ucl games

[lionsden 4,689]

Double post

[The Skipper 20,593]

Managerial stability isnt enough though. These youngsters are not getting first team opportunities and that doesnt seem like changing anytime soon considering the average age of the current squad is one of the youngest in europe. Boga,baker,christensen,rlc et al are basically doomed.

You can't deny that managerial stability will certainly help the situation though. My point was that over the last few years, because the manager has always been under massive pressure to get results, that they can't really risk it and throw in a youngster here or there. With managerial stability - when the manager knows that him taking a few risks won't result in speculation about him losing the job - the opportunities for youngsters should naturally arise.

For now we'll just have to wait and see. The likes of Boga, Baker, RLC and Christensen are all huge talents though and do have the ability to make it through but everything has to fall into place for them for that to happen, and managerial stability is just one of those aspects.

[ulvhedin 473]

And now many people are talking about signing worldclass CB which would mean Zouma, Kalas and Christensen will rot on bench/loan.

[lionsden 4,689]

You can't deny that managerial stability will certainly help the situation though. My point was that over the last few years, because the manager has always been under massive pressure to get results, that they can't really risk it and throw in a youngster here or there. With managerial stability - when the manager knows that him taking a few risks won't result in speculation about him losing the job - the opportunities for youngsters should naturally arise.

For now we'll just have to wait and see. The likes of Boga, Baker, RLC and Christensen are all huge talents though and do have the ability to make it through but everything has to fall into place for them for that to happen, and managerial stability is just one of those aspects.

Ofcourse managerial stabilityis very important and I have already conceded that. However the mentality and philosophy of the manager is just as important as the stability itself.Of what use his managerial stability if the brightest youngsters never get any opportunities. In order for it to work and be worth it, the manager has to be someone that takes great joy and pride in watching youth develop and blossom like Van Gaal, pep, Klopp, pre 2012 Wenger (before the pressure to win got to him)et al