Physical & Mental health

[Stingray 9,441]

This is a male dominated forum and this thread is inactive... Bunch of lazy, fat keyboard warriors....

I got a level 2-3 ankle sprain/ligament tear, tendon rupture and I can't do any running, jumping or kicking on my left leg. I got acupuncture 4x in 2 months. Without any cardio, I'm massively gaining which is not good for me...Past 2-3 months consists of only upper body and pilates/core. I'm like afraid to do any cardio...

I'm looking more and more like Maurice Jones Drew...

I need to start taking protein shakes and eating clean again.

Wtf. Not lazy, not a keyboard warrior. Also someone who thinks acupunture is good for people who negate the fact there is no shred of scientific evidence supporting it.

Anyway! Have fun with the placebo. Ill go do my very social job now, visit my friends, get drunk and love my wife (multiple times)!

Bye bye

[zolayes 14,489]

Wish my lungs werent fucked up .. Congestion today was like M25 . Still self inflicted so won't grumble

[Stingray 9,441]

Wish my lungs werent fucked up .. Congestion today was like M25 . Still self inflicted so won't grumble

You ok Ron?

[zolayes 14,489]

You ok Ron?

yes ,, some days are great some not quite so good ,, thanks tho

[SinineUltra 1,164]

Wtf. Not lazy, not a keyboard warrior. Also someone who thinks acupunture is good for people who negate the fact there is no shred of scientific evidence supporting it.

Anyway! Have fun with the placebo. Ill go do my very social job now, visit my friends, get drunk and love my wife (multiple times)!

Bye bye

I'd guessing he was just joking, atleast I hope so. Otherwise it will verify the stereotype that every gym rat is a narcissist, looking down on other's who necessarily don't like to work out -which should be ok, everyone has one life- and the unhealthy need to swamp social media after every little exercise or workout just to feel better about oneself and show others how great he or she is. Everything in moderation, especially sports if it is not something you do professionally.

[Korea 734]

Wtf. Not lazy, not a keyboard warrior. Also someone who thinks acupunture is good for people who negate the fact there is no shred of scientific evidence supporting it.

Anyway! Have fun with the placebo. Ill go do my very social job now, visit my friends, get drunk and love my wife (multiple times)!

Bye bye

LOL. No scientific evidence for acupuncture...

DO YOU EVEN LIFT?

[Stingray 9,441]

LOL. No scientific evidence for acupuncture...

DO YOU EVEN LIFT?

I dont lift. I Ph.D :-) you should check the Cochrane index on the science. Also, there is no result on meta-analyses level. Most of the sults that are produced can be acribzd to bias and placebo.

Eg on Asthma:

Authors' conclusions

There is not enough evidence to make recommendations about the value of acupuncture in asthma treatment. Further research needs to consider the complexities and different types of acupuncture.

On glaucoma:

Authors' conclusions

At this time, it is impossible to draw reliable conclusions from available data to support the use of acupuncture for the treatment of glaucoma. Because of ethical considerations, RCTs comparing acupuncture alone with standard glaucoma treatment or placebo are unlikely to be justified in countries where the standard of care has already been established. Because most glaucoma patients currently cared for by ophthalmologists do not use nontraditional therapy, clinical practice decisions will have to be based on physician judgments and patient preferences, given this lack of data in the literature. Inclusion of the seven Chinese trials in future updates of this review may change our conclusions.

Etc, etc. ....

Even pain reduction is doubted highly: http://www.bmj.com/content/338/bmj.a3115

Do YOU even lift?

[Korea 734]

I dont lift. I Ph.D :-) you should check the Cochrane index on the science. Also, there is no result on meta-analyses level. Most of the sults that are produced can be acribzd to bias and placebo.

Eg on Asthma:

Authors' conclusions

There is not enough evidence to make recommendations about the value of acupuncture in asthma treatment. Further research needs to consider the complexities and different types of acupuncture.

On glaucoma:

Authors' conclusions

At this time, it is impossible to draw reliable conclusions from available data to support the use of acupuncture for the treatment of glaucoma. Because of ethical considerations, RCTs comparing acupuncture alone with standard glaucoma treatment or placebo are unlikely to be justified in countries where the standard of care has already been established. Because most glaucoma patients currently cared for by ophthalmologists do not use nontraditional therapy, clinical practice decisions will have to be based on physician judgments and patient preferences, given this lack of data in the literature. Inclusion of the seven Chinese trials in future updates of this review may change our conclusions.

Etc, etc. ....

Even pain reduction is doubted highly: http://www.bmj.com/content/338/bmj.a3115

Do YOU even lift?

phd in what? LOL

You sure do copy and paste well. You do that in your research reports too? One study and now its universal, lol...

Also, pain reduction is purely placebo right? That is why I went from crawling for a day into walking with a limp after acupuncture. That's why the NFL has an acupuncturist for every team to conduct this non scientific thing. That why the NBA employs them for their athletes right? That's why olympic gymnasts get it done prior to their meets?

You sure would know better than they do.

[SinineUltra 1,164]

phd in what? LOL

You sure do copy and paste well. You do that in your research reports too? One study and now its universal, lol...

Also, pain reduction is purely placebo right? That is why I went from crawling for a day into walking with a limp after acupuncture. That's why the NFL has an acupuncturist for every team to conduct this non scientific thing. That why the NBA employs them for their athletes right? That's why olympic gymnasts get it done prior to their meets?

You sure would know better than they do.

Portugal's national football team has rose-scented pillows waiting for them in Brazil. Will it help their performance? Maybe, maybe not - they are professionals, they know the best, right? Point being: even if certain teams or sportsmen use this kind of ALTERNATIVE medicine, it does not make it scientifically proven. Even fortune-tellers get it right sometimes.

[MetsajCFC 1,255]

Acupuncture is a form of alternative medicine, like it or not. It's not proven, find me one reliable source on PubMed for example of a large scale meta-analysis that confirms that acupuncture has real physiological benefits.

Even well known NSAIDs (non-steroid anti-inflammatory drugs) are taken against pain, which is only one symptom when it comes to infection/inflammatory activity in tissues as such (other being redness [basically improved blood flow], pain, odema, temperature). Things like Ibuprofen, Aspirin, Diclofenac, Paracetamol work to inhibit COX-2 pathway, which produces prostaglandines (PG) for example that regulate body's response to inflammatory activities. There have been reports and these drugs do not work against pain, and it's just placebo effect. In the report it was shown that only morphine works for pain basically. Test was as follows: patient could administrate drugs to himself/herself after operation using a remote and automated injection syringes through I/V and would describe and rate his/her pain level. Same thing was done when doctor administrated the drugs using the same remote WITHOUT patient knowing he/she got anything at all. Drug levels in blood were also monitored and compared. And there was vast changes in the way patients described their pain levels when they administrated it themsleves (almost instant relief) and when doctors/nurses did it (pain went down only after couple of HOURS). Only morphine seemed to correlate in both cases. Just shows how powerful human mind is, because this gap of judgement from patients was a result of placebo effect.

That's how medidation works for monks, they are basically able to control certain mechanisms in their bodies: release and inhibition of certain neurotransmitters, which result in less pain etc.

What does this all got to do with acupuncture? If well known and widely studied, MAIN STREAM, drugs are put into doubt (partly) then sticking needles into your body surely can be questioned aswell and rightly so.

Also wanted to add that just because someone doesn't post on an online football forum that he or she just worked out doesn't mean they don't. I do my workout 5 times a week, don't need to share it on the Internet. Sure, discuss about it sometimes but to shove it down someones throat after every workout is just too much, attention-whoring if you may. Good job to anyone sharing and keep going strong!

[Korea 734]

Portugal's national football team has rose-scented pillows waiting for them in Brazil. Will it help their performance? Maybe, maybe not - they are professionals, they know the best, right? Point being: even if certain teams or sportsmen use this kind of ALTERNATIVE medicine, it does not make it scientifically proven. Even fortune-tellers get it right sometimes.

Point being, because its not accepted in western medicine doesn't invalid it.

Point being, that the world uses this to treat their patients does make it proven and relevant. Point being, that professional athletes of all diverse sports use it does validate it.

Here is a simple webmd article to read...

http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/features/acupuncture-pain-killer

http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/acupuncture-is-worth-a-try-for-chronic-pain-201304016042

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/11/acupuncture-provides-true-pain-relief-in-study/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

I guess all those people are part of the fortune teller scam as well.

[Korea 734]

Also wanted to add that just because someone doesn't post on an online football forum that he or she just worked out doesn't mean they don't. I do my workout 5 times a week, don't need to share it on the Internet. Sure, discuss about it sometimes but to shove it down someones throat after every workout is just too much, attention-whoring if you may. Good job to anyone sharing and keep going strong!

Yes, because my post was serious and I was criticizing specific people...............

Shove what down your throat??? Attention whoring what????

[MetsajCFC 1,255]

Point being, because its not accepted in western medicine doesn't invalid it.

Point being, that the world uses this to treat their patients does make it proven and relevant. Point being, that professional athletes of all diverse sports use it does validate it.

Here is a simple webmd article to read...

http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/features/acupuncture-pain-killer

http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/acupuncture-is-worth-a-try-for-chronic-pain-201304016042

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/11/acupuncture-provides-true-pain-relief-in-study/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

I guess all those people are part of the fortune teller scam as well.

Those are not good sources. Those are opinion based interviews, no data, no nothing. What's next, you link us Wikipedia? Check the ones Stingray posted, those are scientific articles.

By the way, how many days have you studied medicine in university? Judging from your post, not a minute.

[SinineUltra 1,164]

Point being, because its not accepted in western medicine doesn't invalid it.

Point being, that the world uses this to treat their patients does make it proven and relevant. Point being, that professional athletes of all diverse sports use it does validate it.

Here is a simple webmd article to read...

http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/features/acupuncture-pain-killer

Have you heard the terms 'of last resort' , 'when everything else fails'? These are the words used when describing alternative medicine incl. acupuncture. Why do people go all through this? Because they WANT to get better. There is no greater force in the universe than the willpower of a man in need. This is classical placebo effect.

Stingray gave you multiple articles to reassure his case. Only thing you can come up with is cocky demeanour and an article about acupuncture by biased acupuncturists from a pop-scientific page people use to diagnose indigestion. Aslong as you don't link a scientific study, don't be surprised if your snobby outbursts are replied with arguments and not 'likes'.

I'm sure you'll reply with a cool comeback and use 'brah' and 'do you even lift' several times thinking you're a genius, but remember that the difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.

Having seen you edited your post to add more links. Only the last one had a scientific study liked to it and the author's own conclusion was ' Significant differences between true and sham acupuncture indicate that acupuncture is more than a placebo. However, these differences are relatively modest, suggesting that factors in addition to the specific effects of needling are important contributors to the therapeutic effects of acupuncture.' Don't only concentrate on the headings.

[Korea 734]

Have you heard the terms 'of last resort' , 'when everything else fails'? These are the words used when describing alternative medicine incl. acupuncture. Why do people go all through this? Because they WANT to get better. There is no greater force in the universe than the willpower of a man in need. This is classical placebo effect.

Stingray gave you multiple articles to reassure his case. Only thing you can come up with is cocky demeanour and an article about acupuncture by biased acupuncturists from a pop-scientific page people use to diagnose indigestion. Well done. Aslong as you don't link a scientific study, don't be surprised if your snobby outbursts are replied with arguments and not 'likes'.

I'm sure you'll reply with a cool comeback and use 'brah' and 'do you even lift' several times thinking you're a genius, but remember that the difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.

Here are direct quotes about the whole placebo nonsense you speak of...

"The placebo issue really only arises because we are still learning how to study acupuncture. It's not easy, and our analytical technology is not fully ready. Acupuncture is not a drug, it is a procedure applied to a patient without a general anesthetic. We are still only at the beginning stages of how to study something as complicated as acupuncture. If you read a "placebo controlled" study for a drug, one can guarantee that the sugar-pill placebo was physiologically inert. Also, that our pill making technology can adequately make a "sham" pill to completely blind both patient and doctor. "Sham"acupuncture currently has no standardization, and one cannot blind an L.Ac. anymore than one can blind a surgeon - and there are not many placebo controlled surgical studies out there. "Sham" acupuncture has not been shown to be physiologically inert, and the "true" acupuncture studies tend to look at specific point prescriptions, not the real life prescription an L.Ac. can employ. There is a lot of 'GIGO' studies skewing the data - garbage in, garbage out - that simply do not reflect the level of care my patients receive. Cochrane group, that great bastion of evidence based medicine, has changed its mind about acupuncture in relation to several diagnoses, and they regularly point out the insufficiency of the quality of our technical ability to study acupuncture. How long we have studied something does not really relate to whether a phenomenon is there or not - we have been "doing" science for longer than decades but are always finding something new, and many paradigms have come and gone as technical ability changes. "

Also, he gave me one study and copy and pasted the conclusion of another......

[Stingray 9,441]

phd in what? LOL

You sure do copy and paste well. You do that in your research reports too? One study and now its universal, lol...

Also, pain reduction is purely placebo right? That is why I went from crawling for a day into walking with a limp after acupuncture. That's why the NFL has an acupuncturist for every team to conduct this non scientific thing. That why the NBA employs them for their athletes right? That's why olympic gymnasts get it done prior to their meets?

You sure would know better than they do.

Yeah copy pasted from the no1 source in medical science. Cochrane database where you find meta-analyses on the subject - universal and all pointing in one direction. I just gave you some examples, btw. Also, its not cause 'people us it' (authority argument) or 'it healed me in a day'(anecdotal - check miracle healers if you want those), that it is scientific. Which was my zrgument btw. You just take my comment personal. It is very much in the realm of alternative medicine. This is pure fact,

Also, did i step on your dick or something? Ph.d is in philosophy of science btw.

[Korea 734]

Yeah copy pasted from the no1 source in medical science. Cochrane database where you find meta-analyses on the subject - universal and all pointing in one direction. I just gave you some examples, btw. Also, its not cause 'people us it' (authority argument) or 'it healed me in a day'(anecdotal - check miracle healers if you want those), that it is scientific. Which was my zrgument btw. You just take my comment personal. It is very much in the realm of alternative medicine. This is pure fact,

Also, did i step on your dick or something? Ph.d is in philosophy of science btw.

Maybe you should read the quote I posted....

"Cochrane group, that great bastion of evidence based medicine, has changed its mind about acupuncture in relation to several diagnoses, and they regularly point out the insufficiency of the quality of our technical ability to study acupuncture. How long we have studied something does not really relate to whether a phenomenon is there or not - we have been "doing" science for longer than decades but are always finding something new, and many paradigms have come and gone as technical ability changes. "

SOOOOO...

Also, you responded to me, not vice versa

[Stingray 9,441]

Maybe you should read the quote I posted....

"Cochrane group, that great bastion of evidence based medicine, has changed its mind about acupuncture in relation to several diagnoses, and they regularly point out the insufficiency of the quality of our technical ability to study acupuncture. How long we have studied something does not really relate to whether a phenomenon is there or not - we have been "doing" science for longer than decades but are always finding something new, and many paradigms have come and gone as technical ability changes. "

SOOOOO...

Also, you responded to me, not vice versa

I did angry man. So far it is still in the realm of alternative medicine. Of course do we need more study material. Ill post ALL the conclusions from Cochrane on the fields of study (yes copy pasta! )

1. Asthma: Authors' conclusions

There is not enough evidence to make recommendations about the value of acupuncture in asthma treatment. Further research needs to consider the complexities and different types of acupuncture.

2. Glaucoma: Authors' conclusions

At this time, it is impossible to draw reliable conclusions from available data to support the use of acupuncture for the treatment of glaucoma. Because of ethical considerations, RCTs comparing acupuncture alone with standard glaucoma treatment or placebo are unlikely to be justified in countries where the standard of care has already been established. Because most glaucoma patients currently cared for by ophthalmologists do not use nontraditional therapy, clinical practice decisions will have to be based on physician judgments and patient preferences, given this lack of data in the literature. Inclusion of the seven Chinese trials in future updates of this review may change our conclusions.

3. irritable bowel syndrome

Authors' conclusions

Sham-controlled RCTs have found no benefits of acupuncture relative to a credible sham acupuncture control for IBS symptom severity or IBS-related quality of life. In comparative effectiveness Chinese trials, patients reported greater benefits from acupuncture than from two antispasmodic drugs (pinaverium bromide and trimebutine maleate), both of which have been shown to provide a modest benefit for IBS. Future trials may help clarify whether or not these reportedly greater benefits of acupuncture relative to pharmacological therapies are due entirely to patients’ preferences for acupuncture or greater expectations of improvement on acupuncture relative to drug therapy.

4. Head aches (this one is actually a bit positive - it might be there is a working here)

Authors' conclusions

In the previous version of this review, evidence in support of acupuncture for tension-type headache was considered insufficient. Now, with six additional trials, the authors conclude that acupuncture could (read well!) be a valuable non-pharmacological tool in patients with frequent episodic or chronic tension-type headaches.

5. Depression

Authors' conclusions

We found insufficient evidence to recommend the use of acupuncture for people with depression. The results are limited by the high risk of bias in the majority of trials meeting inclusion criteria.

6. Schizophrenia

Authors' conclusions

We found insufficient evidence to recommend the use of acupuncture for people with schizophrenia. The numbers of participants and the blinding of acupuncture were both inadequate, and more comprehensive and better designed studies are needed to determine the effects of acupuncture for schizophrenia.

7. Shoulder pain (artritis)

Authors' conclusions

Due to a small number of clinical and methodologically diverse trials, little can be concluded from this review. There is little evidence to support or refute the use of acupuncture for shoulder pain although there may be short-term benefit with respect to pain and function. There is a need for further well designed clinical trials.

8. Ostheoarthritis: Authors' conclusions

Sham-controlled trials show statistically significant benefits; however, these benefits are small, do not meet our pre-defined thresholds for clinical relevance, and are probably due at least partially to placebo effects from incomplete blinding. Waiting list-controlled trials of acupuncture for peripheral joint osteoarthritis suggest statistically significant and clinically relevant benefits, much of which may be due to expectation or placebo effects.

The list goes on: either very small effects that can be attributed to other unknown effects or no effects. Where there are effects found it is in self reports on pain reduction (can be psychological - placebo)

Just read it yourself: http://www.thecochranelibrary.com/details/collection/691705/Acupuncture-ancient-tradition-meets-modern-science.html

So - they have not really "changed their minds". They are open for investigating, like scientists should. To already call acupuncture science is over the top.

Also: its not cause you write in bold that it is more true. Calm down.