Oscar

[The Skipper 20,593]

SO glad you said that!

His point remains. Oscar isn't exactly a pace merchant but Firmino isn't significantly slower. Oscar is slightly quicker but the difference is nowhere near as pronounced as you say they are.

The FM and FIFA games don't just pluck numbers from anywhere either so it's nowhere near as bad as you're trying to make it seem. He just used them to reinforce one slight point he was making and from what I've seen, there is no way one would say Firmino is significantly slower either.

[Viper22 2,418]

Skipper man.... I never thought i'd see you on the side of someone quoting FM and FIFA stats as fact (or any semblance of it).

I love both FM and FIFA and play them a lot. I also get very annoyed at people saying "Where is this possible? FM/FIFA?" to something innocuous like suggesting we could sign Reus/Pogba.

But you can't just quote numbers from them game and take them as gospel fact. You just can't.

Where has all this talk about Firmino come from? I admit I haven't seen much of him but are we really suggesting that a guy who isn't even a standout in the Bundesliga (he isn't that well known, he really isn't) could be a good option to come in and be better than Oscar? Of course it's possible that he could be amazing, but where are we getting this from?

Looking at his info, he's played for Hoffenheim and not to a level where he's renowned (at least in this country) and I like to think I have quite a good knowledge of the players around Europe if they come onto the radar due to performing at a high level.

No-one has really put forward a good argument for why there's a very good chance he'll be better than Oscar (there needs to be a very high chance, it's a huge risk to drop Oscar and shell out 20-30M on a player we're not sure about) and not for any other gettable player either tbh.

Coutinho is a very good player that I actually rate highly, but at best he's as good as Oscar when they have their best days and he has similar problems with consistency.

Unless Real go full retard and decide to sell Isco who is clearly better than Oscar, I don't believe there is an available player who is definitely better than him ATM.

[zolayes 14,489]

Either I've misunderstood your point ZY or you're a heck of a chess player.

no its easy ,,, you actually play one against the other ....I was only a county level chess player was better at Bridge

[Viper22 2,418]

Feel free to use caps and a massive amount of question-marks and dots to make your next point though, it really makes you appear more mature.

Dude, don't do stuff like this. You're putting forward well structured arguments but so is Chelsea Legend. Attacking the way someone writes (which isn't OTT anyway, e.g. the correct way to do an ellipsis (...) is with 3-4 dots, so he's not overdoing that either) just suggests you're losing an argument and resorting to churlish abusive tactics.

[The Skipper 20,593]

Skipper man.... I never thought i'd see you on the side of someone quoting FM and FIFA stats as fact (or any semblance of it).

I love both FM and FIFA and play them a lot. I also get very annoyed at people saying "Where is this possible? FM/FIFA?" to something innocuous like suggesting we could sign Reus/Pogba.

But you can't just quote numbers from them game and take them as gospel fact. You just can't.

Where has all this talk about Firmino come from? I admit I haven't seen much of him but are we really suggesting that a guy who isn't even a standout in the Bundesliga (he isn't that well known, he really isn't) could be a good option to come in and be better than Oscar? Of course it's possible that he could be amazing, but where are we getting this from?

Looking at his info, he's played for Hoffenheim and not to a level where he's renowned (at least in this country) and I like to think I have quite a good knowledge of the players around Europe.

No-one has really put forward a good argument for why there's a very good chance he'll be better than Oscar (there needs to be a very high chance, it's a huge risk to drop Oscar and shell out 20-30M on a player we're not sure about) and not for any other gettable player either tbh.

Coutinho is a very good player that I actually rate highly, but at best he's as good as Oscar when they have their best days and he has similar problems with consistency.

Unless Real go full retard and decide to sell Isco who is clearly better than Oscar, I don't believe there is an available player who is definitely better than him ATM.

I'm not using FM or FIFA to state a fact, just saying that Rekin's use of it was nowhere near as bad as CL11 is patronisingly saying it is.

Anyone that watched Firmino and Oscar wouldn't say that Oscar is significantly faster.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

His point remains. Oscar isn't exactly a pace merchant but Firmino isn't significantly slower. Oscar is slightly quicker but the difference is nowhere near as pronounced as you say they are.

The FM and FIFA games don't just pluck numbers from anywhere either so it's nowhere near as bad as you're trying to make it seem. He just used them to reinforce one slight point he was making and from what I've seen, there is no way one would say Firmino is significantly slower either.

But how is he gonna rely on FM15 for unquantifiable stats but ignore them when there is something quantifiable to be analyzed? Are they only useful when we're left to guess? That is the most ridiculous stance I've heard in quite some time.

And if its true that FM15 don't pluck stats from nowhere and can be relied on then this whole argument is coming apart at the seams, Oscar has better ratings than Firmino in a pretty much every category we've been analyzing and the ones where Firmino should be way better he's only slightly. I myself will acknowledge Oscar is without question a poor decision maker and hasn't really got great vision, yet he's much better than Firmino who apparently is a ridiculous passer(73%) and makes loads of incisive key passes.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

Dude, don't do stuff like this. You're putting forward well structured arguments but so is Chelsea Legend. Attacking the way someone writes (which isn't OTT anyway, e.g. the correct way to do an ellipsis (...) is with 3-4 dots, so he's not overdoing that either) just suggests you're losing an argument and resorting to churlish abusive tactics.

I actually like it!

[Supermonkey92 1,428]

Oscar is not my number one choice, which is conflicting because I really like the guy and appreciate what a fully realised Oscar could bring to a team, I just don't think he's going to realise his potential.

But a moment of caution, it has been Oscar who has scored a lot of our best goals and has come up with moments of brilliance as much as others if not more this season.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

Oscar is not my number one choice, which is conflicting because I really like the guy and appreciate what a fully realised Oscar could bring to a team, I just don't think he's going to realise his potential.

But a moment of caution, it has been Oscar who has scored a lot of our best goals and has come up with moments of brilliance as much as others if not more this season.

and he was purchased for £19.35M I would say we've gotten ridiculous return on the value.

[OhForAGreavsie 5,773]

no its easy ,,, you actually play one against the other ....

A neat piece of wit which often does the rounds in chess playing circles and which even made it into Darren Brown's act but of course you did say, "I can play chess against..." which is not really true now is it? Maybe saying with instead of against would work and still raise a smile.

If everyone will forgive a little bit of pedantry the joke doesn't really work anyway since the best player, human or computer, will sometimes win as well as sometimes losing against the second best so at least a draw would not always follow.

P.S. I'm not even county standard. Middling to weak club standard at best and I'm no better at bridge. Mind you, I play a lot more bridge than I do chess these days.

[Viper22 2,418]

I'm not using FM or FIFA to state a fact, just saying that Rekin's use of it was nowhere near as bad as CL11 is patronisingly saying it is.

Anyone that watched Firmino and Oscar wouldn't say that Oscar is significantly faster.

Maybe fair enough, but sometimes FIFA/FM do seem to pluck values out of their arse.

Case in point being to compare RVP and Costa from this years FIFA/FM game:

(FM / FIFA)

Costa RVP

Finishing: 17/90 18/91

First Touch: 16 19 (No FIFA stats)

Passing: 14/65/48 16/85/75 (FM/FIFA Short/FIFA Long)

Balance: 13/62 16/59

Composure: 13 17 (No FIFA stats)

They're just the first ones I looked at. Does RVP have more balance under pressure or more composure than Costa? I really don't think so.

And even an area where RVP is deffo better (heading), weirdly Diego is better there. They sometimes make very odd rating is all i'm saying, so it's hard to draw anything from them.

So while they're sometimes not completely wrong, they also sometimes can be. And so it's hard to take anything tangible from the data both games supply.

Not a personal attack, jus' sayin'.

[Dion 2,476]

To be fair, while it is undeniable that Firmino is more creative, has better dribbling and way more flair than Oscar (which makes watching him more pleasant), the few times I could watch him play he missed A HELL LOT of passes, if you get annoyed but Oscar's inconsistent passing you all would go crazy watching Firmino. Still, Firmino is a good player, has a very good work rate and the defensive side of his game is at least on Oscar's level if not better. All in all, I consider them similar players, although I believe Firmino wouldn't be near as good if he was in Oscar's shoes (as Chelsea's nº 10) playing in the EPL.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

To be fair, while it is undeniable that Firmino is more creative, has better dribbling and way more flair than Oscar (which makes watching him more pleasant), the few times I could watch him play he missed A HELL LOT of passes, if you get annoyed but Oscar's inconsistent passing you all would go crazy watching Firmino. Still, Firmino is a good player, has a very good work rate and the defensive side of his game is at least on Oscar's level if not better. All in all, I consider them similar players, although I believe Firmino wouldn't be near as good if he was in Oscar's shoes (as Chelsea's nº 10) playing in the EPL.

Thank you. I analyzed some data and it backs up what you saw. Firmino passes the ball on the same level as Phil Bardsley(73%). yes he is more pleasing on the eyes because he is a dribbler, but the overall quality of his game is so-so. If we swapped out Oscar for Firmino I really don't see how it improves our team greatly... That's the point I was trying to make.

When you buy a player for 19m you are buying one with a few warts... simple, easy, to the point.

[Yeboii 1,844]

To be fair, while it is undeniable that Firmino is more creative, has better dribbling and way more flair than Oscar (which makes watching him more pleasant), the few times I could watch him play he missed A HELL LOT of passes, if you get annoyed but Oscar's inconsistent passing you all would go crazy watching Firmino. Still, Firmino is a good player, has a very good work rate and the defensive side of his game is at least on Oscar's level if not better. All in all, I consider them similar players, although I believe Firmino wouldn't be near as good if he was in Oscar's shoes (as Chelsea's nº 10) playing in the EPL.

I think he could become back up nr 10 at best here. The grass is always greener on the other side for some posters here...

[Dion 2,476]

Thank you. I analyzed some data and it backs up what you saw. Firmino passes the ball on the same level as Phil Bardsley(73%). yes he is more pleasing on the eyes because he is a dribbler, but the overall quality of his game is so-so. If we swapped out Oscar for Firmino I really don't see how it improves our team greatly... That's the point I was trying to make.

When you buy a player for 19m you are buying one with a few warts... simple, easy, to the point.

I've watched some compilations of him playing today (those sort of 'every time player X touched the ball in the match' videos) just to be sure my memory wasn't tricking me and there's one against Bayern Munich which is particularly relevant to the comparison with Oscar. In that game he was literally what Oscar has been for us in most of these recent matches, he scored once or twice (not too sure, just got home after working pretty much the whole day - exhausted as fuck), but the amount of misplaced/intercepted passes and the amount of times he lost possession trying to dribble is mind blowing, I was truly shocked. I won't be too harsh because it was Bayern after all, but that's the typical Oscar performance of recent, poor overall game but contributing to the score nonetheless - except the very last games Oscar couldn't even do that, but you get the point.

[Oscar 441]

Both ericksen and coutinho lost the ball numerous times today in a somewhat open game...

on whoscored.. Coutinho had a 64 percent pass accuracy. Ericksen had 68 percent. Coutinho was dispossed 3x, while ericksen 2x. Coutinho had 1 key pass and ericksen had 0...

People complain about Oscar, yet, when they say these 2 names as replacements, it really baffles me. If it was silva, pogba, modric, or someone along that line, I can understand completely, even if they don't fit Jose's tactics that much. However, neither ericksen nor coutinho is an upgrade from oscar.

[didierforever 7,349]

i dont get what was wrong in REKIN's argument.

poster A said "oscar is way faster than firmino"

poster B gave the only stats available on pace anywhere to simply say that the difference in their pace is no where as much as he previously thought.

if someone actually read rekin's post, he does say that firmino is slightly slower but not as slow as people would have you believe.

as for people saying its easy to judge who is faster, well i cant do that for players with similar pace. i mean i know who is faster between JT and willian or who is faster between walcott and mertesacker, but i wont bet anything on who is faster between rambo and willian. all you can say is that they are fast and have similar paces.

[Bir_CFC 3,455]

Its pretty elementary really, I don't need some video game to tell me what I can see for myself.

but since you want to use video games as a reference

http://i.imgur.com/oVl7S7M.jpg

http://fmscreenshots.weebly.com/hoffenheim.html

Its says here that Oscar is a 15 in dribbling and firmino is a 16... I would've thought Firmino was wayyyy better...I digress.

Flair Oscar is a 16??? and Firmino is a 17??? Something must be wrong here....

tackling Oscar is a 14 and Firmino is a 10???? Are they not paying attention over there at FM15???

Agility they are equals???

Decision making Oscar is a 15 and Firmino is a 12????

But most astonishing of them all is Oscar is a 16 for vision and Firmino is a 14?? are these scores out of 20?? What about all of Firmino key passes? don't they account for that??

Doesn't look like Firmino is determined enough either, maybe thats why he's still at Hoffenheim.

Hahaha, enjoyed that!