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Oscar


themightyblue
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They shared the basics of my opinion. Republicans and democrats both desire a democracy, but can hardly be put together on most issues.

Look, you show no understanding of how to analyze statistics, and you keep making claims about what I say, regardless if they are true or not. Why should I want to keep answering you when you keep being extremely biased and dismiss facts out of hand just because they dont fit your agenda?

You claim that I say we need a player who makes difficult passes regardless of whether he is good at them, but it is simply fantasy.

I said we need a more creative version of Oscar, and that Firmino has the stats to back him up for being that player. How you transform that into the above defies all logic, but it is starting to be a pattern with you; a lack of logic and reason.

In terms of his pass completion, it again shows that you keep ignoring what I explained. He plays in a far inferior team, and has a higher creative responsibility. Oscar tends to bring the ball from deep and just pass it around to other players who are expected to make the breakthrough. Firmino lacks that luxury, and he still eclipses Oscar in the defensive side of his play.

Look how quick you are to dismiss the world cup when it doesnt fit your agenda! What is this "completely different role" that Oscar had in the WC that makes it impossible to compare performances? Just because he played a fair amount of the minutes wide does not somehow justify having very poor passing stats. He does not spend 100% of his time centrally in Chelsea if that is what you thought. Do you even know what a straw man argument is? This is a direct comparison of the same player in two different environments.

It is really starting to annoy me that you make claims for what I have said that are not based on reality. I implied that the players around Oscar boost his stats, never that they were the only reason that he is doing "well".

It just baffles me how much garbage comes out of you. One of the greatest strengths of Firmino is how he plays in counters, and here you sit and ask how we possibly could counter with him in the team? Its just absurd from you to write that he makes terrible decisions and imply his "unsuccessful" dribbles when he was one of the most productive and highly rated players of Bundesliga last season, and shined against the two top teams when they played. Hoffenheim play defensively with quick counters. Please explain to me how Firmino got 16 goals and 11 assists if he is in any way detrimental to counters, I really want you to answer that (although I expect the standard "easy and slow league" answer nonsense). Only Marco Reus was more productive last season, and only four players have been more productive this season so far in germany.

I can in every shape, way and form say that we could do with a no 10 that is better than Oscar at key passes, technique and defensive duties.

How do you measure Firminos pace? I'm really curious about that.

I dont have a tracker in his boots, and I cant compare two people's pace by simply looking at them in different games.

The closest thing I can find is how two games that actually do have partnerships with organisations that do measure these things have valued the pace of the two players. The outcome is:

Oscar Pace Fifa15/FM15 - 81/15

Firmino Pace Fifa15/FM15 - 77/15

Oh, what is that now? These two behemoths of a game seem to completely disagree with your assessment of Firmino's pace. How is that possible? They seem to think that both have very similar pace. Im sure though that your eagle eye have spotted the difference a lot more accurately, and that these games have picked his pace from a hat. Totally rational explanation.

Also, it blows my mind how you completely disrespect me by ignoring what I write. I couldnt make it clearer that Firmino actually has better defensive stats than Oscar, and yet you ask me how bringing "another dribbler" into the team is going to improve us. Do you simply not understand that the deal with Firmino is that he matches or eclipses Oscar in defensive stats while also having a better technique and supplying more key passes while playing in a far worse team? I literally cant make this clearer.

Ask any hoffenheim player about Firmino; you will find that his strengths are his productivity from counters and extremely hard work.

So please stop writing about the limitations of Firmino when you seem to base your complete opinion of him on his passing completion (which is ridiculous to start with) and manage to get it completely wrong when discussing his shortcomings.

Why isnt he capped? He has played two friendlies for Brazil. I dont see why this would be a strong argument regardless. Why did Luiz start in favor of Miranda?

Why is he playing in Hoffenheim? He is 23, and plays for a club that do not need to sell and has performs well in the german league. Last season he was amazing, and I suppose most clubs want to make sure he can maintain that form before forking over the large transfer fee that he would cost. Why did Matic play in Benfica, Willian and Fernandinho in Schaktar, Martinez in Bilbao, Yaya in some Ukrainian team, Drogba in Guingamp etc? Not every player becomes a star at 18, I dont see why that would argue in your favor.

EDIT: Look, Im simply not getting through to you. It is perfectly fine if you disagree with me about Oscar, its just that most of your arguments are completely nonsensical. I will simply say that I agree to disagree and leave this conversation as it has bored me by now and appears to lead absolutely nowhere.

Excellent post. :clap:
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When one of the arguments about real life players has scores and rates on FIFA and Football Manager I know I should abort thread.

Not only keyboard warriors but also joysticks heroes around here.

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When one of the arguments about real life players has scores and rates on FIFA and Football Manager I know I should abort thread.

Not only keyboard warriors but also joysticks heroes around here.

I stopped at Republicans and Democrats! :lol:

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When one of the arguments about real life players has scores and rates on FIFA and Football Manager I know I should abort thread.

Not only keyboard warriors but also joysticks heroes around here.

Did you actually read the context or did you just feel the need to be patronizing? The only reason I included FIFA/FM was because it is impossible to rate someones pace by pure observation. I assume that the developers of the game actually do some research instead of giving players a random number. Is that really that complicated?

@Cholo. Sometimes this forum just surprises me. There are some excellent members, and then there are... well you can guess the rest.

Is the context too difficult for you to grasp? The whole point was that people can share some underlining beliefs yet diverge a lot when it comes to specifics.

I feel that republicans and democrats explain my point in an easy to understand fashion. I was wrong apparently.

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Did you actually read the context or did you just feel the need to be patronizing? The only reason I included FIFA/FM was because it is impossible to rate someones pace by pure observation. I assume that the developers of the game actually do some research instead of giving players a random number. Is that really that complicated?

I imagine its hard to grasp for those who don't play video games. And yes I know EA Sports' modo "if its in the game..." And no its not hard to base someone pace by pure observation. Case in point who is faster John Terry or Willian?

Maybe my ability to judge a players pace by eye sight is much more acute to that of yours... nothing to be ashamed of, I'm sure FM and FIFA are good resources too.

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Did you actually read the context or did you just feel the need to be patronizing? The only reason I included FIFA/FM was because it is impossible to rate someones pace by pure observation. I assume that the developers of the game actually do some research instead of giving players a random number. Is that really that complicated?

@Cholo. Sometimes this forum just surprises me. There are some excellent members, and then there are... well you can guess the rest.

Is the context too difficult for you to grasp? The whole point was that people can share some underlining beliefs yet diverge a lot when it comes to specifics.

I feel that republicans and democrats explain my point in an easy to understand fashion. I was wrong apparently.

FOOTBALL is what played is played on the pitch .. NOT on computer games ,,, Barbara is right .. .. I can play CHess against the best two players in the world

and get at worst two DRAWS ,,, .. you have too much faith in the "EXPERTISE" of programmers ,,, ,, fun ,, but NOT in the real world

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I imagine its hard to grasp for those who don't play video games. And yes I know EA Sports' modo "if its in the game..." And no its not hard to base someone pace by pure observation. Case in point who is faster John Terry or Willian?

Maybe my ability to judge a players pace by eye sight is much more acute to that of yours... nothing to be ashamed of, I'm sure FM and FIFA are good resources too.

Why dont you check FM and FIFA? They will give you the same answer you are expecting. Not exactly sure why that example is supposed to support your case.

To the others:

I really didnt think I would have to explain further, but apparently it is a hard concept for some.

FIFA and FM do not base their numbers on pure observation, but work with organisations such as whoscored, squawka and optajoe among others to determine the values.

In this scenario the other poster was writing that Firmino is significantly slower than Oscar while I disagreed. Since there was no way for either us to really prove our case, turning to this kind of database was the closest thing we could get to the truth.

Ideal? No, but when you cant get the answer on a silver plate, you go for what data you can find.

I seriously do not understand how anyone can turn this into "I believe computer games are reality". Am I being trolled or do people really have a hard time grasping this?

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Did you actually read the context or did you just feel the need to be patronizing? The only reason I included FIFA/FM was because it is impossible to rate someones pace by pure observation. I assume that the developers of the game actually do some research instead of giving players a random number. Is that really that complicated?

@Cholo. Sometimes this forum just surprises me. There are some excellent members, and then there are... well you can guess the rest.

Is the context too difficult for you to grasp? The whole point was that people can share some underlining beliefs yet diverge a lot when it comes to specifics.

I feel that republicans and democrats explain my point in an easy to understand fashion. I was wrong apparently.

I was just joking about the absurdity of reading about Republicans and Democrats in the Oscar thread. Lighten up, mate...

Honestly, I never understood the Oscar discussion. It is just beyond my football understanding :dunno:

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Why dont you check FM and FIFA? They will give you the same answer you are expecting. Not exactly sure why that example is supposed to support your case.

To the others:

I really didnt think I would have to explain further, but apparently it is a hard concept for some.

FIFA and FM do not base their numbers on pure observation, but work with organisations such as whoscored, squawka and optajoe among others to determine the values.

In this scenario the other poster was writing that Firmino is significantly slower than Oscar while I disagreed. Since there was no way for either us to really prove our case, turning to this kind of database was the closest thing we could get to the truth.

Ideal? No, but when you cant get the answer on a silver plate, you go for what data you can find.

I seriously do not understand how anyone can turn this into "I believe computer games are reality". Am I being trolled or do people really have a hard time grasping this?

What you've said was fine, obviously FIFA and FM don't pluck their stats from thin air, especially when it comes to a player as well known as Firmino/Oscar.
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Did you actually read the context or did you just feel the need to be patronizing? The only reason I included FIFA/FM was because it is impossible to rate someones pace by pure observation. I assume that the developers of the game actually do some research instead of giving players a random number. Is that really that complicated?

@Cholo. Sometimes this forum just surprises me. There are some excellent members, and then there are... well you can guess the rest.

Is the context too difficult for you to grasp? The whole point was that people can share some underlining beliefs yet diverge a lot when it comes to specifics.

I feel that republicans and democrats explain my point in an easy to understand fashion. I was wrong apparently.

much before than computers - and therefore stats on videogames existed - people could say if a player has pace or not and compare one's pace to another's - by actually watching matches.

If you need that to help you to measure it, well, then carry on.

Also if you don't feel some of those numbers are delusional and random, well, I guess you haven't been spending enough time playing them though.

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I was just joking about the absurdity of reading about Republicans and Democrats in the Oscar thread. Lighten up, mate...

Honestly, I never understood the Oscar discussion. It is just beyond my football understanding :dunno:

Fair enough. It can a bit annoying though to have people focus on a tiny aspect of a long post.

I can understand your take on it though.

@Barbara

Yes, it is not ideal to use values from a computer game, I understand that.

It is one thing to compare Mertesacker and Walcott though, and another to compare two players who are quite similar.

The main thing the video game reference was meant to show was that two separate huge football games have valued Oscar & Firmino to have almost identical pace. Surely that is a more credible argument than for one person to claim that he can see that one is much faster than another through a few youtube clips?

It was not meant to be absolute proof, just show that it is unlikely that the games would have put very similar values if there really was such a huge difference between them. Do you disagree with this?

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Why dont you check FM and FIFA? They will give you the same answer you are expecting. Not exactly sure why that example is supposed to support your case.

Its pretty elementary really, I don't need some video game to tell me what I can see for myself.

but since you want to use video games as a reference

http://i.imgur.com/oVl7S7M.jpg

http://fmscreenshots.weebly.com/hoffenheim.html

Its says here that Oscar is a 15 in dribbling and firmino is a 16... I would've thought Firmino was wayyyy better...I digress.

Flair Oscar is a 16??? and Firmino is a 17??? Something must be wrong here....

tackling Oscar is a 14 and Firmino is a 10???? Are they not paying attention over there at FM15???

Agility they are equals???

Decision making Oscar is a 15 and Firmino is a 12????

But most astonishing of them all is Oscar is a 16 for vision and Firmino is a 14?? are these scores out of 20?? What about all of Firmino key passes? don't they account for that??

Doesn't look like Firmino is determined enough either, maybe thats why he's still at Hoffenheim.

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FOOTBALL is what played is played on the pitch .. NOT on computer games ,,, Barbara is right .. .. I can play CHess against the best two players in the world

and get at worst two DRAWS ,,, .. you have too much faith in the "EXPERTISE" of programmers ,,, ,, fun ,, but NOT in the real world

Either I've misunderstood your point ZY or you're a heck of a chess player. :)

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Fair enough. It can a bit annoying though to have people focus on a tiny aspect of a long post.

I can understand your take on it though.

@Barbara

Yes, it is not ideal to use values from a computer game, I understand that.

It is one thing to compare Mertesacker and Walcott though, and another to compare two players who are quite similar.

The main thing the video game reference was meant to show was that two separate huge football games have valued Oscar & Firmino to have almost identical pace. Surely that is a more credible argument than for one person to claim that he can see that one is much faster than another through a few youtube clips?

It was not meant to be absolute proof, just show that it is unlikely that the games would have put very similar values if there really was such a huge difference between them. Do you disagree with this?

I couldn't say. I have never watched Firmino. not even when he was being talked by everyone.

It's just weird to see videogame data in a serious discussion about real life players.

I see a lot of people laughing at some rates at FIFA's cards when they come out. Also, whoscord and others sites that give rates to the players lack in so many aspects. I think they're good for exact stats, such as how many assists, tackles, clearances, goals, etc a player had. Everything that is created by a combination of things, loses a lot of real life aspects, and the rating is the worst of that all. The data is too exact to work in such a non-exact sport such as football. Apply it to basketball and volleyball and it works wonders, because those sports have much less variables. For example, what difference it really makes for basketball if a player has pace or not? If he can dribble or not? Stats that talk about shot %, fouls, 3-pointers, FT %, etc... make a lot of sense and can tell a lot about a player and a team, but in football the variables are more in quantity and quality, therefore some of those stats just make them look like clowns. The other day they had Cahill - after he made a mistake for a goal, but not directly - as one of the highest ratings for a match. I mean, come on, so if the guy doesn't make a penalty or fails in some very specific situations, it doesn't count as a mistake. Then his pass accuracy is high, he has a lot of clearances (it was a game we were fairly attacked by opposition), tackles, and whats not and his rating is sky rocketing when he was one of the worst players in the pitch, back away from balls, losing it sometimes, giving some very dangerous backpasses to the keeper etc...

I don't even like chances created stats, but those ratings are the most misleading stats in the specialized sites - can't about videogames because I don't play them.

But I'm not doubting any second about what you're saying on Firmino, as I said I don't know the guy at all.

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How convenient. So it is an acceptable source when you want it to be, but otherwise it is to be used as a counter to an argument? You really are horrible at this.

Its not, that's the point, genius....

Stats like tackles do not need to be taken from FM or FIFA as we actually have the real values, and we know that Firmino do more of them.

But don't they get their information from Opta, Squawka and WhoScored?

Pace is much harder to measure than the amount of tackles, which is why my reference was used.

Clearly it isn't since Firmino has more tackles yet has a significantly lower rating. I bet the next thing you're gonna tell me is you don't know how they've come to these conclusions, but clearly there is some anomaly thrown in.

Yes, some of the values from the game are contradicting what I said earlier, but it is quite irrelevant as the values I used in my previous argument are taken right from the real world.

Oops I'm wrong, now you're only using the data provided when its CONVENIENT? Nice! So things like PACE where there isn't no raw data to analyze its best to go to FM15 but for TACKLES which is quantifiable by the very companies who compile the ratings for FM 15 is not reliable?

Mattlock I think its time for a commercial break.

EDIT: Forgot the CAPS!

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I have to say, while Oscar may not have been great in recent times and he was pretty average against Villa, I did not expect that, especially the latter, has caused such a heated discussion/debate here. Think there have been like 15 pages worth of argument since Saturday! :blink:

Fun reading some of the posts though.

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