Oscar

[Rekin 835]

I swear people in this forum are completely spoiled and have no idea about balance, return on investment and how players function in the team philosophy.

We bought Oscar for exactly £19.35M! In that time he has worked tirelessly for the team and In a lot of ways helped gel the team. I think what's lost on some of you is what he does for the team and what the expected return should be for a 23yr old we paid 19m for.

I'm still waiting for any of you spoiled little brats to find me a better no.10 for Jose's system. And please do so by matching the valuation you have for Oscar.

Why include any valuations? CFC is a rich club and can spend big on a player, and as one of the best clubs in the world they have every right to aim for world class at every position.

We had larger problems than the 10' position before, but now that muscle and creativity in the middle together with a real striker is more than taken care off, we can start looking at other positions and try to improve them. Its not like Oscar hasnt had a chance to show off his skills.

You want a better no10? Well, we can start with exploring how good Willian is there. He sure is quicker, and that matters a lot in our system. We also know that he is at least as good defensively. Do you want to look outside the club? There is Firmino who is at Oscar's age, as good defensively but adds more forward. If he was only a bit quicker he would be a dream signing.

[The Skipper 20,593]

People around here is so pressed about Oscar that I have to laugh about it. Broken records that have to leave 5-6 posts on here on a daily basis, except when he plays well, that is.

It's almost as if they hope or expect that repeating the same thing, day after day will make Oscar leave the team.

If Cesc is recovered, I don't expect to see Oscar playing due to fatigue... but that's it. Now carry on, lol

You could argue it's the same for people that are trying to defend Oscar... Same old arguments of:

1. He's young (laughable)

2. He's sacrificing himself to balance the team

3. He's got 6 goals and 7 assists

4. His pressing game is amazing (it's not when he's fatigued and off form)

5. No other number 10 or player can do what he does...

There are more but it goes both ways.

[The Skipper 20,593]

You fail to see it and people have to prove what you won't accept?

Whatever we say you'll disagree, so I don't feel like wasting time.

Btw, bad month or year? It definitely doesn't feel like only a bad day as you said the other day. Regardless of your opinion about Oscar, your posting changed a lot, and unfortunately it wasn't for the best

I'm going to ignore that personal remark.

Again I ask anyone, please list me the areas in Oscar's game where we've seen clear improvement over the last 3 seasons... I cannot see it personally.

[Special Juan 27,092]

Before this escalates into petty squabbling and personal digs, I'd like to remind everyone to keep things balanced and not to let this topic descend into something very silly. It's been a great read this topic, don't spoil it now.

Thanks.

[The Skipper 20,593]

And please, the argument from me isn't that we should sell Oscar. As I've said before, he'd make an excellent squad player. I just don't believe that he's good enough, or ever will be good enough to be a starter for the next decade. We can do better.

I've got my criticisms of him, but I've always said that he's a decent player and does add value to the squad. Not as a starter though for me unfortunately. I've made that clear from the start.

Bottom line is, we can do better IMO, even internally (Willian).

[BleedsBlue 1,549]

IF we really go for Messi or Pogba in the summer then I can see Jose selling Oscar to the highest bidder.

[lionsden 4,689]

IF we really go for Messi or Pogba in the summer then I can see Jose selling Oscar to the highest bidder.

The question is can messi or pogba maintain the balance or fit Jose's unique philosophy

[remains of the day 564]

It took people 3 years to realise what I have always known. My sentiment back then in his first season was he's not good enough, nor talented enough, nor consistent enough to be a starter for us.

it's amazing how people milked the heck out of that one single performance against juventus to defend his mediocrity throughout the entire 12/13 season.

Imagine someone who constantly berates a manager for refusing to show enough faith in young players, only for that person to vociferously brag about the fact that 2 & a half years ago he wrote off a 21 yr old making a big transition from the Brazilian league to English football. Imagine actually bragging about something like that. As if that's something to be proud of. As if that's something that should be lauded.

There are a few members on here who questioned whether Oscar was good enough to play in the 10 position, Skipper being one of them. Yet despite not being entirely convinced by Oscar's talent, Skipper still defended him on numerous occasions. That's what a football fan with strong principles of nurturing young players does. Regardless of whether they have doubts about the player's potential, they still show a willingness to support the player. A strong desire to see that player succeed at this club. You though never even gave Oscar a chance. You never gave him an ounce of support. A young Chelsea player making a huge step up in his career and you constantly berated him, rarely praised him when he was playing well and the most perverse thing is how you used every. single. poor performance as a victory of sorts and as an opportunity to further slam him. You sit there in front of your screen and give lip service to showing faith in young players but the truth is, you lionsden care more about being right than any larger commitment to youth.

For all your talk about the ills of modern football, you exemplify everything that's wrong with it. You're a walking parody of yourself - a parody that honestly isn't funny anymore.

[lionsden 4,689]

Imagine someone who constantly berates a manager for refusing to show enough faith in young players, only for that person to vociferously brag about the fact that 2 & a half years ago he wrote off a 21 yr old making a big transition from the Brazilian league to English football. Imagine actually bragging about something like that. As if that's something to be proud of. As if that's something that should be lauded.

There are a few members on here who questioned whether Oscar was good enough to play in the 10 position, Skipper being one of them. Yet despite not being entirely convinced by Oscar's talent, Skipper still defended him on numerous occasions. That's what a football fan with strong principles of nurturing young players does. Regardless of whether they have doubts about the player's potential, they still show a willingness to support the player. A strong desire to see that player succeed at this club. You though never even gave Oscar a chance. You never gave him an ounce of support. A young Chelsea player making a huge step up in his career and you constantly berated him, rarely praised him when he was playing well and the most perverse thing is how you used every. single. poor performance as a victory of sorts and as an opportunity to further slam him. You sit there in front of your screen and give lip service to showing faith in young players but the truth is, you lionsden care more about being right than any larger commitment to youth.

For all your talk about the ills of modern football, you exemplify everything that's wrong with it. You're a walking parody of yourself - a parody that honestly isn't funny anymore.

Now I want you to close your eyes and take a very deep breathe. In 3 seconds and . . out. How do you feel now?

[lionsden 4,689]

And please, the argument from me isn't that we should sell Oscar. As I've said before, he'd make an excellent squad player. I just don't believe that he's good enough, or ever will be good enough to be a starter for the next decade. We can do better.

I've got my criticisms of him, but I've always said that he's a decent player and does add value to the squad. Not as a starter though for me unfortunately. I've made that clear from the start.

Bottom line is, we can do better IMO, even internally (Willian).

I don't know why it's so difficult for some people to get this point. We have bigger aspirations and a player as limited and as inconsistent as him should not be a starter for us. He can be the mikel to Matic but not the Matic himself.

[Pizy 17,860]

Unless the rest of his season is simply atrocious I don't think there's a chance we sell him.

While I'm not as down on him as many in here, if getting Pogba was dependent on getting rid of Oscar then I'm all for it.

[Rekin 835]

A more detailed WhoScored analysis shows a few interesting facts:

From all the leagues followed, the AMC's with the highest amount of tackles are:
1. Firmino - 3/game
2. Oscar - 2,2/game
3. Naismith - 2,2/game

Interceptions:
1. Firmino - 1,3/game

2. Sigurdsson - 1,2/game

3. Bojan - 0,9/game

..
12. Oscar - 0,5/game

Clearances:
1. Arruabarrena - 1,4/game

2. Oscar - 1,4/game

3. Charbonnier - 0,9/game
4. Firmino - 0,8/game

Ok, so this evaluates the general defensive performances of AMC's in europes best leagues. Tackles and interceptions would be the most important tangible stats, while clearances are less important but still worth looking at.
We can see that Oscar is without a single doubt one of the best players when it comes to defending on his position.
Let us now see how well he holds up when it comes to key passes, dribbles, amount of passes and lastly shots.

Key Passes/game:
1. Payet - 3,8
2. KDB - 2,9
3. Downing - 2,8
...
8. Firmino - 2
...
13. Oscar - 1,5

Successful dribbles/game
1. Firmino - 4,1
2. Vazquez - 3,8
3. KDB - 3,6
...
16. Oscar - 0,8

Accurate short-passes/game
1. Oscar - 41,6

2. Eriksen - 38,1
3. Hamsik - 35,1
...
12. Firmino - 28,7

Shots/game
1. Calhanoglu - 3,5

2. KDB - 3,1
3. Oscar - 3
4. Firmino - 2,9


To summarize:
Oscar is a very unique type of a player, one of few that contributes both in defence but also going forward. Looking over this stats and asking myself if there is any player in the world right now who can offer that kind of balance, the answer would be only one, and that is Firmino.
While Oscar shines defensively, he struggles offensively. He shows his stamina with the amount of short passes and shots he takes, but the lack of key passes and dribbles showcase a lack of technique and creativity that is normally associated with a number 10.

An assist here and there means nothing, you can pass someone in your own box who goes on to beat 10 man and score, but its hardly the pass that made the difference. Oscar simply contributes little to the final third of the pitch.
Now, if Mou wanted a technical and creative mastermind, he might have let Mata or KDB stay, but since he is looking for someone capable in both directions, it is only fair to say that Oscar is one of the few players that fit the profile, and it will take a lot to remove him due to this.
Willian have the characteristics to be able to contribute in a similar fashion, but my vote still goes to Firmino who without doubt is the most well-rounded AMC in the world. He performs better than Oscar both in the defensive aspect, but he is also a beast going forward, much more direct and constantly creates chaos in the opposition.
In difference from Oscar, you dont need to add "considering his work in defense" when talking about Firmino's attack, it is already really good without that factor.
Both are 23, Brazilian and 10's. I personally think it would be worth forking out a large amount for someone who is already one if the best at their position and who has the future ahead of him as much as Oscar.

I personally think that a lineup next season with:

Costa
Hazard - Firmino - Cuadrado/Willian
Matic - Fabregas
Azpilicueta - Terry/X - Zouma - Ivanovic
Courtois

would be the most well-balanced lineup with the perfect combo of hard workers and elegant players, old and young while already good enough to win everything.

[obiwan92 217]

Now I want you to close your eyes and take a very deep breathe. In 3 seconds and . . out. How do you feel now?

I'd rather feel what she feels than your constant "me-against-the-forum" smug mentality.

Young talent should be nurtured, that's a fact. Yes, Oscar is not performing up to some people's standards, but I also don't understand why you would berate when he was younger.

Would you have not considered Drogba to be a worthy signing because he wasn't convincing as youth, too?

[remains of the day 564]

I'd rather feel what she feels than your constant "me-against-the-forum" smug mentality.

Young talent should be nurtured, that's a fact. Yes, Oscar is not performing up to some people's standards, but I also don't understand why you would berate when he was younger.

Would you have not considered Drogba to be a worthy signing because he wasn't convincing as youth, too?

Yeah I really didn't expect a better response from him to be honest. We're all wearing blue-tinted glasses but him apparently. Lionsden is the football equivalent of a rebel without a cause. If that's his identity as a football fan, then all the power to him but seriously don't strut around here acting like you give a shit about commitment to youth when at the end of the day you care more about being proven right than actually supporting a young struggling player. What's with the pretenses? You don't care about young players, you care about your ego. Right from the very beginning, the guy has mocked, criticized, berated Oscar and every one who has defended him. Yes we get it, you don't think he's talented enough to play for Chelsea, so what? This is a young player wearing the colours of this club. He's a Chelsea player who's making a big step up in leagues and still developing as a player. You can't show him a little support, yet you sit there running your mouth about "putting faith in youth." I can only shake my head....

[Kieran. 6,317]

I'm going to ignore that personal remark.

Again I ask anyone, please list me the areas in Oscar's game where we've seen clear improvement over the last 3 seasons... I cannot see it personally.

Big man

[Oscar 441]

I'm going to ignore that personal remark.

Again I ask anyone, please list me the areas in Oscar's game where we've seen clear improvement over the last 3 seasons... I cannot see it personally.

Free kicks, crossing, tackling, workrate.

I think his passing has gotten worse since his move to chelsea. His goal scoring ability is the same, since he was always a good goal scorer.

[lionsden 4,689]

I'd rather feel what she feels than your constant "me-against-the-forum" smug mentality.

Young talent should be nurtured, that's a fact. Yes, Oscar is not performing up to some people's standards, but I also don't understand why you would berate when he was younger.

Would you have not considered Drogba to be a worthy signing because he wasn't convincing as youth, too?

Yeah I really didn't expect a better response from him to be honest. We're all wearing blue-tinted glasses but him apparently. Lionsden is the football equivalent of a rebel without a cause. If that's his identity as a football fan, then all the power to him but seriously don't strut around here acting like you give a shit about commitment to youth when at the end of the day you care more about being proven right than actually supporting a young struggling player. What's with the pretenses? You don't care about young players, you care about your ego. Right from the very beginning, the guy has mocked, criticized, berated Oscar and every one who has defended him. Yes we get it, you don't think he's talented enough to play for Chelsea, so what? This is a young player wearing the colours of this club. He's a Chelsea player who's making a big step up in leagues and still developing as a player. You can't show him a little support, yet you sit there running your mouth about "putting faith in youth." I can only shake my head....

I will not trade insult with you two. Normally I just ignore posts like this or reply in jest.

First off, No one has anything against Oscar or youth being given a chance to flourish. My stance all along has been that Oscar was handed his status as a starter outrightly without earning it and has failed to show why he deserves to be the starting attacking midfielder of a big club like Chelsea, a club with big ambitions and aspirations to challenge for major trophies. We don't need inconsistent players who may or may not fulfill their potential in the future in the starting 11, no other top club in Europe has one of these players dominating major minutes in their team. the likes of Pogba, Alaba,Isco are as talented,consistent and reliable as their more experienced and established counterparts i.e earned their starting berth. The likes of oscar on the otherhand belong on the bench of a top European team and not in the starting line up.

A quick review of his time here is best summarized with two words frustration and inconsistency

He was largely anonymous throughout his first season here with the exception of his good performances in the UCL and in the second season after a bright start, he went AWOL from November till the end of the season and it's the same all over this season. He's 24 and has been at the club for 3 seasons, It's not hypocritical to suggest he's not good enough to be a starter for a club of our size based on the evidence of the last 3 years.

The only scenario where I could be accused of being an hypocrite is if I endorse youth promotion for the sake of it, at the clear expense of the team's result. I have always advocated for talented youth to be used as squad players, not starters but squad players and if they do eventually develop to the point where they are good enough to start and prove it with high level consistent performances then everyone's happy.

Moreover he cost us £19m and a Brazilian international, so why should he get the same leniency and free pass as a youth player like RLC for example?

[obiwan92 217]

I will not trade insult with you two. Normally I just ignore posts like this or reply in jest.

First off, No one has anything against Oscar or youth being given a chance to flourish. My stance all along has been that Oscar was handed his status as a starter outrightly without earning it and has failed to show why he deserves to be the starting attacking midfielder of a big club like Chelsea, a club with big ambitions and aspirations to challenge for major trophies. We don't need inconsistent players who may or may not fulfill their potential in the future in the starting 11, no other top club in Europe has one of these players dominating major minutes in their team. the likes of Pogba, Alaba,Isco are as talented,consistent and reliable as their more experienced and established counterparts i.e earned their starting berth. The likes of oscar on the otherhand belong on the bench of a top European team and not in the starting line up.

A quick review of his time here is best summarized with two words frustration and inconsistency

He was largely anonymous throughout his first season here with the exception of his good performances in the UCL and in the second season after a bright start, he went AWOL from November till the end of the season and it's the same all over this season. He's 24 and has been at the club for 3 seasons, It's not hypocritical to suggest he's not good enough to be a starter for a club of our size based on the evidence of the last 3 years.

The only scenario where I could be accused of being an hypocrite is if I endorse youth promotion for the sake of it, at the clear expense of the team's result. I have always advocated for talented youth to be used as squad players, not starters but squad players and if they do eventually develop to the point where they are good enough to start and prove it with high level consistent performances then everyone's happy.

Moreover he cost us £19m and a Brazilian international, so why should he get the same leniency and free pass as a youth player like RLC for example?

Not sure how any of this addresses your smugness and "I told you so" attitude for saying the same thing for years, but bravo for changing the topic. :tophat:

I agree with everything you said there, btw. I understand why people aren't happy with him as a CFC player at the present time.