Oscar

[yuvala 2,167]

Oscar isn't more creative than Mata. He's just more effective and this season even creatively and attacking wise. Which is why I hate to compare players. What's the advantage of Mata being more creative if in the end Oscar has been creating more?

Moot convos imo.

Well that is for this season.

When Mata was here his stats were better and he was more effective than Oscar in that sense.

Oscar is better than him this season and he suits Mourinho's team better.

[Barbara 15,149]

Well that is for this season.

When Mata was here his stats were better and he was more effective than Oscar in that sense.

Oscar is better than him this season and he suits Mourinho's team better.

Mata had a team built around him something not even Eden has under Mourinho

That team allowed opponents to make us their bitches in the league - which is why we finished 6th, you point being....?

now that he's just another player in the team - the same way Oscar is here, he isn't as effective. The same he wasn't under Mourinho.

I said it many, many, many times, under FSW - when he gave free reign to Mata and under di Matteo when Robbie didn't seem to realize how much Mata exposed our pivot and defense while also giving him too much freedom - Mata seemed to be much bigger than he is.

If for a small streak we gave Hazard or Cesc the same kind of freedom Mata had here, they'd also have that sort of stats. Also Mata was very lucky in many, many goals. How many matches he was completely anonymous and then somehow scored or assisted?

When he's anonymous - and contributes a lot to the opponent scoring or dominating us - he's a king because he scored or assisted. When Oscar misplaces five passes after scoring two goals and playing well, he's sloppy and everyone is jumping on his back because of a few sloppy passes every other match.

Yes, Oscar needs more focus and to improve his passing, but still most matches this season he's kept his passing % around 80% (in 18 matches he averages 84% with 60% of them forward passes, he had lower than 80% pass accuracy only in three matches - but had at least 90% in four)... it's not like he's been playing as bad as he did against Newcastle (in the first half) every other week, but people took advantage of a catastrophic 45 minutes by him (where he still scored a vital goal for us) and are now making it look like that has been the standard from him this season (saying his sloppy passing isn't something only from last match - when he hit the incredible mark of 11 according some stats sites and 12 according others).

He had a sequence of anonymous matches in December, where his passing was below average as well as his overall game. that's called a slump that I hope he left it behind him. Still in the last 9 league games he contributed directly - between goals and assists - with eight goals - more than any other player in the team including Hazard, Costa and Cesc. Make the math, the last nine games in the league coincide with part of his slump. I'll take the goals and assists - without compromising his need to improve in some areas - but that's a 23yo player stepping up during a difficult time, scoring opening games, being quiet, but also decisive. Something we've missed last season. Had Oscar not scored in some of those games we maybe wouldn't have won them. He scored and assisted against Palace and Newcastle - games we dropped points last season. He was blamed then as he should - but he's barely praised now.

[lionsden 4,689]

Mata had a team built around him something not even Eden has under Mourinho

That team allowed opponents to make us their bitches in the league - which is why we finished 6th, you point being....?

now that he's just another player in the team - the same way Oscar is here, he isn't as effective. The same he wasn't under Mourinho.

I said it many, many, many times, under FSW - when he gave free reign to Mata and under di Matteo when Robbie didn't seem to realize how much Mata exposed our pivot and defense while also giving him too much freedom - Mata seemed to be much bigger than he is.

If for a small streak we gave Hazard or Cesc the same kind of freedom Mata had here, they'd also have that sort of stats. Also Mata was very lucky in many, many goals. How many matches he was completely anonymous and then somehow scored or assisted?

When he's anonymous - and contributes a lot to the opponent scoring or dominating us - he's a king because he scored or assisted. When Oscar misplaces five passes after scoring two goals and playing well, he's sloppy and everyone is jumping on his back because of a few sloppy passes every other match.

Yes, Oscar needs more focus and to improve his passing, but still most matches this season he's kept his passing % around 80%... it's not like he's been playing as bad as he did against Newcastle (in the first half) every other week, but people took advantage of a catastrophic 45 minutes by him (where he still scored a vital goal for us) and are now making it look like that has been the standard from him this season (saying his sloppy passing isn't something only from last match - when he hit the incredible mark of 11 according some stats sites and 12 according others).

He had a sequence of anonymous matches in December, where his passing was below average as well as his overall game. that's called a slump that I hope he left it behind him. Still in the last 9 league games he contributed directly - between goals and assists - with eight goals - more than any other player in the team including Hazard, Costa and Cesc. Make the math, the last nine games in the league coincide with part of his slump. I'll take the goals and assists - without compromising his need to improve in some areas - but that's a 23yo player stepping up during a difficult time, scoring opening games, being quiet, but also decisive. Something we've missed last season. Had Oscar not scored in some of those games we maybe wouldn't have won them. He scored and assisted against Palace and Newcastle - games we dropped points last season. He was blamed then as he should - but he's barely praised now.

There's a big difference between having the team built around a player and giving a player freedom and license with limited to no tactical responsibility. the former is a big myth that has gone unbusted for way too long. Can you explain to me how the team was built around Mata?

In my understanding to build a team around a player means, supplying the player with the right supporting cast and personnel to get the very best out of them and limit or cover their flaws. for one, Torres was the main striker who he was expected to assist (enough said). to put it simply, He's every attacking midfielders worst night mare.

secondly throughout mata's time here, he played in front of disjointed and subpar double pivot that was totally incapable of finding him in the right areas of the picth i.e the little pocket between the opposition CM and defence where AM are at their most effective best which forced him to drop back deep to collect the ball most of the time out of frustration.

And thirdly our extremely weak wing play during his time here which resulted in lack of width meant his options in attack was limited and he had limited movement and unreliable fullbacks and wingers to deliver diagonal passes to, to unlock opposition defence and coupled with the team's general slow ball movement . . . . if anything it's remarkable how mata was able to record such impressive figures in a highly flawed and inbalanced team.

The latter statement might be true regarding freedom and license to roam but the former is far from reality. The team wasn't built to get the best out of Mata at all.

[yuvala 2,167]

Mata had a team built around him something not even Eden has under Mourinho

That team allowed opponents to make us their bitches in the league - which is why we finished 6th, you point being....?

now that he's just another player in the team - the same way Oscar is here, he isn't as effective. The same he wasn't under Mourinho.

I said it many, many, many times, under FSW - when he gave free reign to Mata and under di Matteo when Robbie didn't seem to realize how much Mata exposed our pivot and defense while also giving him too much freedom - Mata seemed to be much bigger than he is.

If for a small streak we gave Hazard or Cesc the same kind of freedom Mata had here, they'd also have that sort of stats. Also Mata was very lucky in many, many goals. How many matches he was completely anonymous and then somehow scored or assisted?

When he's anonymous - and contributes a lot to the opponent scoring or dominating us - he's a king because he scored or assisted. When Oscar misplaces five passes after scoring two goals and playing well, he's sloppy and everyone is jumping on his back because of a few sloppy passes every other match.

Yes, Oscar needs more focus and to improve his passing, but still most matches this season he's kept his passing % around 80% (in 18 matches he averages 84% with 60% of them forward passes, he had lower than 80% pass accuracy only in three matches - but had at least 90% in four)... it's not like he's been playing as bad as he did against Newcastle (in the first half) every other week, but people took advantage of a catastrophic 45 minutes by him (where he still scored a vital goal for us) and are now making it look like that has been the standard from him this season (saying his sloppy passing isn't something only from last match - when he hit the incredible mark of 11 according some stats sites and 12 according others).

He had a sequence of anonymous matches in December, where his passing was below average as well as his overall game. that's called a slump that I hope he left it behind him. Still in the last 9 league games he contributed directly - between goals and assists - with eight goals - more than any other player in the team including Hazard, Costa and Cesc. Make the math, the last nine games in the league coincide with part of his slump. I'll take the goals and assists - without compromising his need to improve in some areas - but that's a 23yo player stepping up during a difficult time, scoring opening games, being quiet, but also decisive. Something we've missed last season. Had Oscar not scored in some of those games we maybe wouldn't have won them. He scored and assisted against Palace and Newcastle - games we dropped points last season. He was blamed then as he should - but he's barely praised now.

What lionsden said basicaly.

I am not claiming that Mata's a better player though nor was it my original point.

I just questened whether these stats can decide who's better (IMO they do not).

I agree about Oscar. It would be interesting to see him reaching new heights

There's a big difference between having the team built around a player and giving a player freedom and license with limited to no tactical responsibility. the former is a big myth that has gone unbusted for way too long. Can you explain to me how the team was built around Mata?

In my understanding to build a team around a player means, supplying the player with the right supporting cast and personnel to get the very best out of them and limit or cover their flaws. for one, Torres was the main striker who he was expected to assist (enough said). to put it simply, He's every attacking midfielders worst night mare.

secondly throughout mata's time here, he played in front of disjointed and subpar double pivot that was totally incapable of finding him in the right areas of the picth i.e the little pocket between the opposition CM and defence where AM are at their most effective best which forced him to drop back deep to collect the ball most of the time out of frustration.

And thirdly our extremely weak wing play during his time here which resulted in lack of width meant his options in attack was limited and he had limited movement and unreliable fullbacks and wingers to deliver diagonal passes to, to unlock opposition defence and coupled with the team's general slow ball movement . . . . if anything it's remarkable how mata was able to record such impressive figures in a highly flawed and inbalanced team.

The latter statement might be true regarding freedom and license to roam but the former is far from reality. The team wasn't built to get the best out of Mata at all.

I agree.

[Barbara 15,149]

There's a big difference between having the team built around a player and giving a player freedom and license with limited to no tactical responsibility. the former is a big myth that has gone unbusted for way too long. Can you explain to me how the team was built around Mata?

In my understanding to build a team around a player means, supplying the player with the right supporting cast and personnel to get the very best out of them and limit or cover their flaws. for one, Torres was the main striker who he was expected to assist (enough said). to put it simply, He's every attacking midfielders worst night mare.

secondly throughout mata's time here, he played in front of disjointed and subpar double pivot that was totally incapable of finding him in the right areas of the picth i.e the little pocket between the opposition CM and defence where AM are at their most effective best which forced him to drop back deep to collect the ball most of the time out of frustration.

And thirdly our extremely weak wing play during his time here which resulted in lack of width meant his options in attack was limited and he had limited movement and unreliable fullbacks and wingers to deliver diagonal passes to, to unlock opposition defence and coupled with the team's general slow ball movement . . . . if anything it's remarkable how mata was able to record such impressive figures in a highly flawed and inbalanced team.

The latter statement might be true regarding freedom and license to roam but the former is far from reality. The team wasn't built to get the best out of Mata at all.

He was given plenty of freedom, the players sought him, basically all plays went through him, we were dependable on him - but he didn't influence as many matches, he had no other tactical responsibility other than pass, it was like everyone else were supporting him, protecting him, exposing our back, exposing our midfield, limiting the kind of play we had - unless we were extremely defensive. Under Rafa it was even worse. Mata was the anchor in his team. We played very narrow on many occasions, we tried to keep possession because it suited Mata, and as you said because we didn't have better tools, but even then Hazard was here in that season - and they linked up brilliantly because Mata has excellent vision and had a quick understanding with Eden (same way Cesc did - which leads me to believe Eden makes it easy for technical players to find him and have good and quick chemistry with him).

For a player that plays centered - like Mata - and who likes to have time to touch the ball, to analyze for long seconds what to do with it, to carry it, to make 1-2s in front of the area, that team was perfect. As he's FAR from physically capable, he didn't have to press, to tackle, to help, he just stayed there in his captive #10 position waiting the team to give him the ball so he could play his magic - magic that had come many, many, many times from set-pieces. So given the number of goals and assists he had from set pieces - which have nothing to do with the crappy team you say he had surrounding him (still that team won UCL beating Barça and Bayern, but to each their own, that team wasn't that bad, it was just terribly managed). so for a player who had plenty of freedom, had the other players suit his style of play as well as the tactics (which for me makes a team built around him) and who also benefited of being an excellent set piece taker, I don't see anything unexpected from his stats. As I said if Cesc or Hazard had the same freedom, they'd have the same. Actually allow me to rectify my previous comment, they would be MUCH BETTER than Mata was imo... Cesc, playing from the pivot, with a lot of defensive responsibilities and also being far from a physical player or a fast one, will end up the season with nearly the same amount of assists. Scoring from the pivot is definitely more challenging than from behind the striker, especially when he's 3rd, 4rh in the pecking order to free kicks straight to the goal.

The United team is a mess from behind the pivot, starting there. But they have one of the best attacking midfields and strikers in the league, absolutely NO excuse for someone supposedly as good as Mata is known around here to have those stats. As I said he's playing alongside van Persie, Rooney, Falcao, di María... if that isn't an improvement of what he had here, then I don't know what could possibly be. The difference is that there he isn't the main man. There all set pieces aren't automatically assigned to him, the tactics haven't been changed to suit him, he doesn't stay static waiting for the ball to arrive to him...

But to each their own, if you think he didn't have a team built around him under Rafa is your prerogative. I disagree. Making excuses for Mata with the attacking power United has for him to feed really makes no sense in my head. He should have twice more assists than he does when his target are Rooney, RvP and Falcao. As I always say, he left a low of widows here. Ain't gonna change.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

Should have started ahead of Cesc, especially with the form he's in. José paid too much respect to Liverpool tonight. Ramires and Oscar, two work-horses with bundles of energy on the counter and equal energy in pressing high up the pitch, would have stifled so many of their attacks. Fabregas was anonymous.

[LAB 1,030]

Maybe it would have been better if Jose subbed him off on Saturday to be able to get some minutes today.

[Rapkun 668]

Should have started ahead of Cesc, especially with the form he's in. José paid too much respect to Liverpool tonight. Ramires and Oscar, two work-horses with bundles of energy on the counter and equal energy in pressing high up the pitch, would have stifled so many of their attacks. Fabregas was anonymous.

That's extremely harsh. He pressed all game, dropped back to support the midfield and secure the ball when we intercept it. He had very few balls to play with and he did the best he could with minimum support. he made the pass to Eden for the pen too. I dont think Oscar could have done better today.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

That's extremely harsh. He pressed all game, dropped back to support the midfield and secure the ball when we intercept it. He had very few balls to play with and he did the best he could with minimum support. he made the pass to Eden for the pen too. I dont think Oscar could have done better today.

Fabregas pressed but nowhere near "all game". He spent most of the first half playing at walking pace. Oscar would have given us a totally different dynamic, but neither would have been helped by José's intentions of getting a draw.

[The Skipper 20,593]

Why isn't that enough for you guys?

If he proves to be an important cog and a lynch pin player for Jose isn't that great for CFC?

As I've said in a previous post if you ask Isco to win 2 tackles a game, test the keeper 3 times a game, score goals and assist goals, press the opposition when out of possession AND do it week in and week out he would likely fail miserably. And I don't know what Ross Barkley you've been watching but this year he's been nothing short of awful, you put him in this team and we'd be MUCH worse off not to mention we'd have to pay upwards of 30m... Pogba is the only guy I think who can impact our lineup positively.

We bought Oscar for something like £20M, we didn't pay over the odds for him. What he's done for the team(never mind individual contributions which have also been good) has made our team much more complete and balanced. I feel sometimes you guys look at the player's skill and not the system we play. Mata was our two time player of the year coming off a season where he had 18 goals and 25 assists in all comps, remarkable. Why was he let go? because he could cope with the demands Jose puts on the team. Oscar isn't always an offensive dynamo but he is a key cog to the overall functionality of the squad. I don't think there are many players in the world today who will get you 10-15 goals, 10-15 assists, 2-2.5 tackles, and be adaptable enough to mark out an opposing attacker. He is a brilliant player who needs to get better in some areas but he is very tough to replace.

The players I've listed could do an effective job in pressing, covering gaps and tactical discipline just like Oscar but would contribute a lot more to our team going forward.

On Barkley, of course Ross Barkley isn't going to be in top form, he just came back from a 3-4 month layoff recently. I just think he has a higher ceiling than Oscar and could potentially do Oscar's job just as well in the team but could add more going forward, hence why I listed him.

I just feel that someone like Pogba or Isco in Oscar's place for example would take this team to even another level.

No idea why Mata is being mentioned when I haven't mentioned the lad at all. His inclusion in this is irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

I don't at all understand the decision to not play him today. If I had to choose only 2 matches of the 4 we had after Swansea for him to play in, I'd have gone with both of the Liverpool matches. Very weird decision not to play him especially when we were looking to hit them with quick transition on the counter.

[CFC888 219]

I don't at all understand the decision to not play him today. If I had to choose only 2 matches of the 4 we had after Swansea for him to play in, I'd have gone with both of the Liverpool matches. Very weird decision not to play him especially when we were looking to hit them with quick transition on the counter.

I agree, however as LAB says below I think Oscar's non-appearance last night was a product of him playing the full 90 at Swansea, which he hasn't done since early December against Spurs. I do think he has a major role to play in the return leg though.

Maybe it would have been better if Jose subbed him off on Saturday to be able to get some minutes today.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

The players I've listed could do an effective job in pressing, covering gaps and tactical discipline just like Oscar but would contribute a lot more to our team going forward.

On Barkley, of course Ross Barkley isn't going to be in top form, he just came back from a 3-4 month layoff recently. I just think he has a higher ceiling than Oscar and could potentially do Oscar's job just as well in the team but could add more going forward, hence why I listed him.

I just feel that someone like Pogba or Isco in Oscar's place for example would take this team to even another level.

No idea why Mata is being mentioned when I haven't mentioned the lad at all. His inclusion in this is irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make.

There is no evidence to support your claim that Barkley or Isco could be effective in a pressing team looking to get out on the counter. Its not as easy as just running at players and making a nuisance of yourself, there is the tactical acumen that comes with it like when to press and anticipating where you have to be to win the ball. I've never seen Barkley or Isco deployed in that system before and judging what I have seen of them I doubt highly they would be effective in pressing and winning the ball back.

I think you're ignoring the type of physical exhaustion that comes with playing this system. Have you ever seen Pogba, Barkley or Isco play in a high tempo pressing game? I certainly haven't and if there was one thing missing today in our play(whether tactical or in ability) it was the inability to get close to Liverpool to pressure them into making mistakes, Cesc is a fantastic player but was largely useless when we weren't in possession. Oscar is a tireless competitor who is very tough to play against because he never lets up... You can't say the same about any of the players you mentioned and I absolutely LOVE Pogba... He is a different player.

Pogba and Isco could very well take us to the next level because they are incredible when in possession... I don't think they make our current system any better though and at what price? Can we get either of them for a reasonable fee to make it worth while for the gamble? I don't think so. In terms of value and return you will be hard pressed to find a player as good as Oscar....

Mata was brought up as an example of a player who was incredible in one system and terrible in another. He is also a player I put in the same bracket as Oscar, not world class but aspects of his game are very effective and top shelf.

[Thor 2,121]

The one frustration I have with him is ball retention under pressure.

He can't seem to handle being pressured at all. He either gets pushed off the ball, falls over, or ends up getting the ball under his feet and does a bad pass. He also gets stuck having to back track at times when he tries to beat his man when pressured.

That is literally the only problem of his. Ability to deal with defensive pressure. He is great at pressuring others, but when it happens to him, he crumbles at times.

[rantdeville 195]

There is no evidence to support your claim that Barkley or Isco could be effective in a pressing team looking to get out on the counter. Its not as easy as just running at players and making a nuisance of yourself, there is the tactical acumen that comes with it like when to press and anticipating where you have to be to win the ball. I've never seen Barkley or Isco deployed in that system before and judging what I have seen of them I doubt highly they would be effective in pressing and winning the ball back.

I think you're ignoring the type of physical exhaustion that comes with playing this system. Have you ever seen Pogba, Barkley or Isco play in a high tempo pressing game? I certainly haven't and if there was one thing missing today in our play(whether tactical or in ability) it was the inability to get close to Liverpool to pressure them into making mistakes, Cesc is a fantastic player but was largely useless when we weren't in possession. Oscar is a tireless competitor who is very tough to play against because he never lets up... You can't say the same about any of the players you mentioned and I absolutely LOVE Pogba... He is a different player.

Pogba and Isco could very well take us to the next level because they are incredible when in possession... I don't think they make our current system any better though and at what price? Can we get either of them for a reasonable fee to make it worth while for the gamble? I don't think so. In terms of value and return you will be hard pressed to find a player as good as Oscar....

Mata was brought up as an example of a player who was incredible in one system and terrible in another. He is also a player I put in the same bracket as Oscar, not world class but aspects of his game are very effective and top shelf.

A very, very pragmatic and under appreciated approach to the situation. I can relate to it entirely, but I would be lying to you if I didn't say I really wanted Pogba in the team just because I think he is going to a very special player.

Mourinho has carved out a very oddly shaped hole for the number 10 in this team, and all those players, for all their virtues and wonder, would be square pegs in round holes.

I suppose there is a method to the Mourinho madness.

But FIFA with Pogba...gimme dat lol

[yuvala 2,167]

Had a really bad game IMO, hope he can jump back.

[OhForAGreavsie 5,775]

The one frustration I have with him is ball retention under pressure.

He can't seem to handle being pressured at all. He either gets pushed off the ball, falls over, or ends up getting the ball under his feet and does a bad pass. He also gets stuck having to back track at times when he tries to beat his man when pressured.

That is literally the only problem of his. Ability to deal with defensive pressure. He is great at pressuring others, but when it happens to him, he crumbles at times.

A very fair analysis I think.

Had a really bad game IMO, hope he can jump back.

Morning Yuvala,

I'm quite surprised that you say this. I may be among Oscar's biggest critics but I felt he had a decent game last night. Yes some of the weaknesses we know about, like the one Thor talked about last week, were again on show but not as noticeably as they often are. What's more, I thought that the things he is good at were on display. For example, there were some nice, first time, 'round the corner' passes which created good situations and, pleasingly, an acceptable number of his more considered passes also found their targets.

My overall opinion remains the same; we would benefit from finding an Oscar upgrade but, credit where's it's due, he did well last night.

[We Hate Scouse 10,260]

A very fair analysis I think.

Morning Yuvala,

I'm quite surprised that you say this. I may be among Oscar's biggest critics but I felt he had a decent game last night. Yes some of the weaknesses we know about, like the one Thor talked about last week, were again on show but not as noticeably as they often are. What's more, I thought that the things he is good at were well displayed last night. For example, there some nice, first time, 'round the corner' passes which created good situations and, pleasingly, an acceptable number of his more considered passes also found their targets.

My overall opinion remains the same; we would benefit from finding an Oscar upgrade but, credit where's it's due, he did well last night.

He played well in the 2nd half, he must of got a bollocking at half time. In the first half he was completely invisible, he looked lost. I can only recall 3/4 times he was even on the ball, 2 of which he lost possession due to sloppy play.