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Oscar


themightyblue
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Brazil's high pressing is something to behold, 5 players up the field stifling the opposition until their knees buckle. I thought Oscar had a great game.

Agreed. I don't think Oscar was brilliant, but he did have a great game and that kind of consistency is impressive for a 22yo.

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He actually had a poor game. The kid needs rest, he's played far too many matches over the last 2 years.

We're just increasing the odds of him suffering an early burn-out in his career if it carries on like this.

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He actually had a poor game. The kid needs rest, he's played far too many matches over the last 2 years.

We're just increasing the odds of him suffering an early burn-out in his career if it carries on like this.

so ,,YOU think Lukaku is laughable ,,Wilian a waste of money and oscar is facing burn out ....

do we have ANYONE who reaches the standards you set , ???

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I don't think he had a poor game. I think given his last few games for us and the first friendly with Brazil in this international break, he's played better Tuesday than in all of his November games. He had a terrible miss, but he played a good match. I said great in the international thread, which was a stretch, but it was pretty good and I think poor is a stretch too.

Well, the kid is playing for Galaxy... which I think has something to do with the 'Winner takes Earth' thing where it's Galaxy against whoever, Galaxy as in the phone :P

You're absolutely wrong because you're missing the big picture which is sample size. All statistics are flawed if you look at them in tiny sample sizes. You can take 3 brilliant shots that force 3 great saves and one player takes an awful shot that the keeper whifs at and he gets a goal and you don't. Does that mean that goals are a useless statistic? You can get an assist when you completely miss a pass and it goes to the wrong person who scores. Does that mean assists are useless? Of course not and it's the same with key passes because we are not talking about one or two plays which may or may not be flukes, we are talking 30-35 games worth of play and over the course of that many games, the luck evens out. Chances created is extremely important. For example, last year, the top 5 in Key Passes in the Premier League were Silva, Baines, Suarez, Mata, and Gerard, All are creative players who set up chances. Players who are great at setting up chances always have high key pass rates and players that aren't, don't. It's actually incredibly indicative of a player's creativity which is why you see a lot of repetition among the leaders. Mata in his 3 years at Chelsea averaged 3, 2.7, and 2.1 key passes a game. Why? Because he is a creative player who sets other players up for shots. Ozil is averaging 3.1 key passes a game this year for the same reason. The super creative players get key passes and it's not a coincidence. Anyway, I don't even see your issue. A pass from the halfway line that sets someone up to shoot is almost certainly a good pass because at the very least, you're completing a pass from the centre of the pitch to a scoring position. What's wrong with counting that as an extremely positive play? (which it is)

haven't seen this before...

Well I've worked with research for years, so I know all there's there to know about samples and universe and how one translates into the other and the margin errors and all the calculation behind it. I could even provide you one for this specific stat (margin error for the CC stat) if you'd like to back up your future arguments.

Still sampling doesn't apply to CC stats imo. Sometimes a player provides a key pass for another and instead of the second shooting on goal, they pass around again. I remember Mata and Hazard doing that in the match against Newcastle... so despite creating a chance - a clear chance in that case - it won't count because Mata chose to pass to HAzard again instead of shooting, even though he was unmarked just inside the box.

So there are a few chances created that will never make the stats and there way too many CC that aren't chances, rather than a player trying a shot out of nowhere where he had no business trying to shoot either because it was too desperate, far, illogical or because there were other players better positioned. But if you want to embrace that and thing that the concept of samples work here, be my guest. One of our most underwhelming players this season is Hazard and he leads EPL chances created. And then you talk with Chelsea fans and most of them will agree that Hazard played shit for us in EPL this year (I guess he had one good EPL game), his best matches were in Europe, but still he leads not only Chelsea, but the whole EPL chances created... Then you look at his assists and compare them to Toure, Ramsey and Ozil - to mention just a few - and you're left speechless because there's nothing really to be said.

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as a Mathematician and a Statastician I don't consider most of the "stats " in football as Statistics ,,,they are just a relation of the cliches and hackneyed phrases

used by the media "experts" to hide their ability to present correct analysis of players teams and games

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haven't seen this before...

Well I've worked with research for years, so I know all there's there to know about samples and universe and how one translates into the other and the margin errors and all the calculation behind it. I could even provide you one for this specific stat (margin error for the CC stat) if you'd like to back up your future arguments.

Still sampling doesn't apply to CC stats imo. Sometimes a player provides a key pass for another and instead of the second shooting on goal, they pass around again. I remember Mata and Hazard doing that in the match against Newcastle... so despite creating a chance - a clear chance in that case - it won't count because Mata chose to pass to HAzard again instead of shooting, even though he was unmarked just inside the box.

So there are a few chances created that will never make the stats and there way too many CC that aren't chances, rather than a player trying a shot out of nowhere where he had no business trying to shoot either because it was too desperate, far, illogical or because there were other players better positioned. But if you want to embrace that and thing that the concept of samples work here, be my guest. One of our most underwhelming players this season is Hazard and he leads EPL chances created. And then you talk with Chelsea fans and most of them will agree that Hazard played shit for us in EPL this year (I guess he had one good EPL game), his best matches were in Europe, but still he leads not only Chelsea, but the whole EPL chances created... Then you look at his assists and compare them to Toure, Ramsey and Ozil - to mention just a few - and you're left speechless because there's nothing really to be said.

Take the "Chances created" stat in isolation. Why do you assume that creating chances equals playing well? It is used to judge a players' creativity not a measure of whether he is playing well, so the Hazard example doesn't fit in here. Hazard leads EPL chances created stats. Hazard has not played extremely well this season. Both statements are true imo but completely separate.

Even if a few chances do not make it into the stats, it doesn't make the statistics obsolete. If you look around, you see Baines, Silva, Ozil, Eriksen etc near the top of the stats and that I think is fair.

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as a Mathematician and a Statastician I don't consider most of the "stats " in football as Statistics ,,,they are just a relation of the cliches and hackneyed phrases

used by the media "experts" to hide their ability to present correct analysis of players teams and games

Amen!

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Take the "Chances created" stat in isolation. Why do you assume that creating chances equals playing well? It is used to judge a players' creativity not a measure of whether he is playing well, so the Hazard example doesn't fit in here. Hazard leads EPL chances created stats. Hazard has not played extremely well this season. Both statements are true imo but completely separate.

Even if a few chances do not make it into the stats, it doesn't make the statistics obsolete. If you look around, you see Baines, Silva, Ozil, Eriksen etc near the top of the stats and that I think is fair.

Hazard hasn't been creative for us at all in the EPL, still he's the player with more chances created in the competition... while he's created very little and other guys created much more in other teams... I was talking about this. Tell me without looking into vids at least three chances you remember him creating for us in EPL this season and the player who received the assist wasted it? I can't for the life of me remember it. That's what I mean. He didn't play well and he didn't create chances either. But I do agree with you both things are completely separate. He failed in both imo.

I like stats - depending on what they are. I have a problem with this specific stats. It's very misleading and can lead to lies. IMO our most creative player this season has been Ramires. I remember a few chances created by him... but that's going off of memory, I certainly don't remember everyone's chances created.

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Hazard hasn't been creative for us at all in the EPL, still he's the player with more chances created in the competition... while he's created very little and other guys created much more in other teams... I was talking about this. Tell me without looking into vids at least three chances you remember him creating for us in EPL this season and the player who received the assist wasted it? I can't for the life of me remember it. That's what I mean. He didn't play well and he didn't create chances either. But I do agree with you both things are completely separate. He failed in both imo.

I like stats - depending on what they are. I have a problem with this specific stats. It's very misleading and can lead to lies. IMO our most creative player this season has been Ramires. I remember a few chances created by him... but that's going off of memory, I certainly don't remember everyone's chances created.

Consider the sample size though. Hazard was leading the chances created stats in October when barely 2-3 months of football had been played. He is not anymore.

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I have always believed he's not a playmaker and is massively overrated and nothing I have seen over the past year has changed that pov. I see him as a very poor man's Thomas Muller. . . .whether he will ever reach Mullers height in terms of ruthless efficiency and productivity that the German is known for, remains to be seen. But people expecting him to be this creative monster are sadly mistaken. He's not a no 10 for me.

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I have always believed he's not a playmaker and is massively overrated and nothing I have seen over the past year has changed that pov. I see him as a very poor man's Thomas Muller. . . .whether he will ever reach Mullers height in terms of ruthless efficiency and productivity that the German is known for, remains to be seen. But people expecting him to be this creative monster are sadly mistaken. He's not a no 10 for me.

It's funny how the best managers around don't happen to agree with you. You've said many a times you never wanted Oscar at this club because he's taking the place of an academy player, your way of seeing things is preposterously flawed.

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I have always believed he's not a playmaker and is massively overrated and nothing I have seen over the past year has changed that pov. I see him as a very poor man's Thomas Muller. . . .whether he will ever reach Mullers height in terms of ruthless efficiency and productivity that the German is known for, remains to be seen. But people expecting him to be this creative monster are sadly mistaken. He's not a no 10 for me.

I don't think he's quite an Ozil or even a Mata, but more of a link-man who brings every player into the game. To me, you have to build the team around him and let him dictate the tempo right throughout the team, but he's still young and new to Mourinho's system. I think we'll see him get back to his best after a rough couple of weeks.

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It's funny how the best managers around don't happen to agree with you. You've said many a times you never wanted Oscar at this club because the place of an academy player, your way of seeing things is preposterously flawed.

It's my opinion ofcourse and it's a good thing that I don't allow popular opinions/perception affect my judgement. When I think of playmakers who play behind the strikers, I think of nimble, crafty and intelligent players like Iniesta, Totti, Zola,Silva, Ozil, mata et al oscar certainly looks out of place in such company as he lacks the vision and creativity of those type of players.

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I don't think he's quite an Ozil or even a Mata, but more of a link-man who brings every player into the game. To me, you have to build the team around him and let him dictate the tempo right throughout the team, but he's still young and new to Mourinho's system. I think we'll see him get back to his best after a rough couple of weeks.

he's not crafty enough to be able to dictate the game and link up play to the level where you can build a team around him imho. You build your team around players that I have already listed in the last post and not Oscar.

He simply lacks the IT factor that every top quality no 10 possess. but we can agree to disagree.

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Hazard hasn't been creative for us at all in the EPL, still he's the player with more chances created in the competition... while he's created very little and other guys created much more in other teams... I was talking about this. Tell me without looking into vids at least three chances you remember him creating for us in EPL this season and the player who received the assist wasted it? I can't for the life of me remember it. That's what I mean. He didn't play well and he didn't create chances either. But I do agree with you both things are completely separate. He failed in both imo.

I like stats - depending on what they are. I have a problem with this specific stats. It's very misleading and can lead to lies. IMO our most creative player this season has been Ramires. I remember a few chances created by him... but that's going off of memory, I certainly don't remember everyone's chances created.

This is exactly why stats are useful. Because memory is extremely faulty and people pay attention to specific things and have inherent confirmation bias. You are talking about over 100 hours of football in a year and hundreds of chances created spread out all over the place, you simply cannot remember even a fraction of them. That you don't remember Hazard creating chances is irrelevant, the fact that he is creating 2 chances a game matters and Ramires is doing 1.4 a game matters a lot (never mind that Hazard is the most fouled player in the Premier League which also creates chances.)

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