Jump to content

David Luiz


the wes
 Share

Recommended Posts

To me, in no way has Luiz been a bad transfer, simply because he hasn't depreciated in value. If we do sell him we'll still fetch £30m for him which is fine.

That's one way of measuring it another way will be to evaluate performance and value of a player to the team. A successful transfer is one that proves to be good/great value for money.

Also, Luiz has had a bad/average season this year, so naturally people will completely forget the strong finish he had the season before where he was one of our better players, with most of his good games coming at CB. It wasn't like he wasn't improving. Luiz has had quite a few quality performances at CB exclusively for us which some seem to have completely forgotten - suitably to their agenda against Luiz - but before this season started he was definitely our best CB and he was really set to establish himself as a top CB but he obviously regressed this season due to numerous reasons.

You see that's another problem right there. strong finish to the season clearly indicates irregularities and inconsistency (which is a major flaw of his) otherwise the statement would be "strong/great season" period. it shows he wasn't consistent through out the season and unfortunately for us he plays in a position where mistakes and inconsistencies can be very costly and are usually punished. we need a consistent and reliable performer.

It's not fair to fully assess his CB performances IMO this season because he was never really given an extended run in. I think he only had a bout 10 games at CB which isn't enough at all.

It's simple - if he was as bad as some are trying to make out on here, he would in no way be attracting top clubs like Bayern, PSG & Barcelona (these guys aren't stupid), and he would in no way still be Brazil's (who have more than competent central defenders about) starting CB.

No we are assessing his CB performance since he joined and the conclusion is that he's unreliable and inconsistent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's one way of measuring it another way will be to evaluate performance and value of a player to the team. A successful transfer is one that proves to be good/great value for money.

Luiz has not been a bad player for us though (i.e. Torres bad - that is a truly disastrous signing) - if he was his value would've obviously gone down. I wouldn't say the Luiz transfer has been a major success but to say it's been a bad signing is simply wrong in my opinion, simply because he has not depreciated in value.

You see that's another problem right there. strong finish to the season clearly indicates irregularities and inconsistency (which is a major flaw of his) otherwise the statement would be "strong/great season" period. it shows he wasn't consistent through out the season and unfortunately for us he plays in a position where mistakes and inconsistencies can be very costly and are usually punished. we need a consistent and reliable performer.

No we are assessing his CB performance since he joined and the conclusion is that he's unreliable and inconsistent.

I fully agree that consistency was Luiz's biggest problem, never will I deny that - but the fact that he finished the season strongly for us last year and then went on to also have a very good Confederations Cup tournament had many on here hoping that this season would be the season where he truly broke out as a top CB.

Obviously because of various reasons - i.e. not having a pre season, being injured when he came back, form issues and JT + Cahill being very solid throughout the year which justifiably meant he didn't get an extended look in when Jose did make the team defensively more solid - that didn't happen, but that's football, not everything goes perfectly to plan so I'm not complaining about that in the slightest.

If we sell him it's good business for the club, if not, we keep him - he's still a very good squad player to have around and can still produce excellent performances for us. He might even get another run in at CB - who knows. Either way, it's not the end of the world if we sell, nor is it the end of the world if we keep him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Luiz has not been a bad player for us though (i.e. Torres bad - that is a truly disastrous signing) - if he was his value would've obviously gone down. I wouldn't say the Luiz transfer has been a major success but to say it's been a bad signing is simply wrong in my opinion, simply because he has not depreciated in value.

Technically Luiz cost the club £46m. The £24m we paid Benfica plus the £22m, the player that was involved in the exchange (Matic), cost to reacquire. The only way his actual value would have appreciated was if he was valued at/ or sold for £46m plus.

I fully agree that consistency was Luiz's biggest problem, never will I deny that - but the fact that he finished the season strongly for us last year and then went on to also have a very good Confederations Cup tournament had many on here hoping that this season would be the season where he truly broke out as a top CB.

Obviously because of various reasons - i.e. not having a pre season, being injured when he came back, form issues and JT + Cahill being very solid throughout the year which justifiably meant he didn't get an extended look in when Jose did make the team defensively more solid - that didn't happen, but that's football, not everything goes perfectly to plan so I'm not complaining about that in the slightest.

If we sell him it's good business for the club, if not, we keep him - he's still a very good squad player to have around and can still produce excellent performances for us. He might even get another run in at CB - who knows. Either way, it's not the end of the world if we sell, nor is it the end of the world if we keep him.

This is a reasonable and honest reply tbf. can't disagree with that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Technically Luiz cost the club £46m. The £24m we paid Benfica plus the £22m, the player that was involved in the exchange (Matic), cost to reacquire. The only way his actual value would have appreciated was if he was valued at/ or sold for £46m plus.

This is a reasonable and honest reply tbf. can't disagree with that.

We can easily overlook that technicality because you and I both know there is no way Matic would be the player he is today had we kept him around. Matic now is a completely different entity to the Matic we signed back in 2009. Benfica did us a massive favour in fact - not only in developing him as a player but also in selling him back to us at a very, very decent price.

Happy to have a fair debate about Luiz on here with you though, some seem to be incapable of that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most of you covered the subject nicely. But i believe Jose likes him and he is not going to sell him. His versatility is something special for me. You can't find players like Luiz easily. But if we sell him that's the thing i am going to miss and not so much his defensive qualities.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Beepu,

You need to look at Luiz as a footballer & not as a person. Chelsea plays football games.

The club has not hired Luiz for his charming personality. Lol.

Re-read what I wrote. I said I like him as a person but it would be stupid to reject an offer of that amount eh.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn't call him a hoof ball specialist because that implies he's a early-90s Wimbledon-style 'route one' merchant which he isn't.

But he went from being a player who always tried to dribble out of trouble to a player who would routinely hoof the ball away in ANY direction. It's like someone told him 'when in doubt, kick it out' and he literally felt he had to do that whenever he had even a moment's doubt, so you had this odd situation in a match earlier in the season (can't remember exactly which one right now) where he seemed to just punt the ball away whenever it came near him in the last 5-10 minutes.

Cahill is actually getting close to Terry in the 'underrated ability to pass' league. Neither is Frank Leboeuf (still the most beautiful passing defender I've seen - the passes being beautiful, not him....although when he shaved that last remaining hair off...I digress) but they keep it simple.

For Luiz it's not the ability to pass that is the issue....it's the judgment. Fact is you acknowledge that in your last sentence. He's 27. We're talking about the same issues he had at 23.

Agreed, there was a mentality switch in him to go from carrying the ball out to hoofing.

But I honestly believe that switch was imposed on him by someone. We know Luiz is a ball playing defender, kind of a sweeper of the old tactical days, but he's not as mature and is shy of the technical ability needed to do it consistently & successfully. So his natural instinct will be to do just that, we've seen that from 2011-13, that's why I believe he's been told to do it by Mourinho. As I said before, we've seen Cahill and Terry demonstrate it this season also.

I agree about judgement which he hasn't been able to mature yet. £25-30million is an extraordinary fee for a 27-year old defender who's been displaced in the squad, so it wouldn't be the worst case scenario in the world, but I share the view others posted in this thread.. We can't go into next season with Cahill, Terry, Kalas and Zouma as our CBs, we need someone with experience and someone with big game mentality (it wouldn't be fair to say Luiz doesn't have that maturity in him, his immaturity is only displayed in the less important games).

Unless Mourinho has such a replacement lined up, I'd think we'd regret the sale of Luiz.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its intriguing that the most loud voices against Luiz always come from english members...

Correct. Because we like defenders who can defend. I know it's an abstract thing and call me old-fashioned if you will, but give me a Gary Cahill or a John Terry over a Dante or David Luiz any day of the week.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Correct. Because we like defenders who can defend. I know it's an abstract thing and call me old-fashioned if you will, but give me a Gary Cahill or a John Terry over a Dante or David Luiz any day of the week.

Dante can't defend?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sorry, but how many times does this member have to imply there's some xenophobic or racist agenda behind some people's comments before he's reprimanded?

It's not bullshit. Ivanovic is a very capable central defender and has shown it on numerous occasions, like at Liverpool a couple of weeks ago. He made a couple of errors last season but I would still trust him over Luiz.

When Terry was injured for a couple of weeks Luiz was drafted in. Fortunately the first game was against Newcastle who had no fight in them, although Luiz still made a couple of errors. The second game was against West Brom when he lost Anichebe in the 87th minute and he scored.

David Luiz hasn't played in defence since.

We'll see, but I absolutely think he isn't a Jose-type of player and I think Jose has realised that ever since he dropped him for the second time in November.

Then why was he adamant in January David Luiz isn't for sale and he was indeed kept because we so desperately needed him? Why? Didn't you just said Iva is a hell of a defender and we still had Cole in the squad? He could have gotten rid of him easily, but he didn't and he was adamant on saying as a broken record he isn't for sale. It can change in the summer window, but if Mourinho went out of his way to say it a few times and he did, is because he is the kind of player Jose likes. I'm talking about a lot of things when I label the Mourinho kind of player and people with his spirit and as committed as him are missing a little bit these days at the Bridge. Yeah, he has brainfarts at moments that come from lack of concentration, I'm talking about giving everything, growing in the biggest matches when the teams need him the most. Mourinho value those things and I'm not sure he's ready to give up on a player with Luiz's potential - showed by his technical skills - just because he had a bad/average season.

I really don't get what is your huge problem with him, but it's something you're entitled to and a few even feel the same. I think it's a bit too much. He isn't the best defender in the world - far from it - but he isn't as bad as you make him out to be imo. we can agree to disagree.

Also the Ivanovic part of my argument had among other things the need to use him as a RB explaining how unless we sign Luke Shaw, Azpili is stuck in the LB and we don't have someone to play in the RB as I think Cole is likely to leave. Ivanovic is capable, I agree, but far from ideal, and it's not only the mistakes he did last season that hurt us. He had made many mistakes, the ones against Swansea were catastrophes, not only mistakes, throughout the whole season. But it were less flashy mistakes, and Cahill was hideous at some matches too, and Terry was injured. So my whole point is all of our defenders (except maybe Terry) had had streaks of bad form in the last three seasons, it's not only Luiz's privilege, so I think we could keep them and maybe we will.

Correct. Because we like defenders who can defend. I know it's an abstract thing and call me old-fashioned if you will, but give me a Gary Cahill or a John Terry over a Dante or David Luiz any day of the week.

sorry to get into the discussion - your point is relevant, I don't think Henrique's is, but Gary Cahill who is acclaimed here isn't exactly a defender who can defend. He's a defender who can defend in a certain system (the whole defense playing very deep) and still it seems to some he's the best thing in defense these days. He's very limited and he excelled in a system that favored him. If there's a match that demands a different style - like the 2nd leg against Atlético, for example - he's a liability and the match itself showed it.

I'm not even questioning you choosing him over Luiz (although the way you word it, it's as if he's the same level or kind of defender Terry is - he isn't and will never be because Terry is a hell of a defender, that although he's always been slow, when younger had more tools in his box than Gary and adapted better to different conditions/systems). But I do agree Dante can't defend.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thing is - when I've watched Luiz for Brazil - he's been really good - last ditch defending a la Terry / Cahil ....

Maybe he just needs consistency and a working relationship with a co-defender.

If he goes I'll be sad.

I don't think anybody can accuse him of NOT trying - he gives everything during a game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • 0 members are here!

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

talk chelse forums

We get it, advertisements are annoying!
Talk Chelsea relies on revenue to pay for hosting and upgrades. While we try to keep adverts as unobtrusive as possible, we need to run ad's to make sure we can stay online because over the years costs have become very high.

Could you please allow adverts on this website and help us by switching your ad blocker off.

KTBFFH
Thank You