test

Welcome to Talk Chelsea

Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to contribute to this site by submitting your own content or replying to existing content. You'll be able to customize your profile, receive reputation points as a reward for submitting content, while also communicating with other members via your own private inbox, plus much more! This message will be removed once you have signed in.

Spike

Politics & Stuff

Started by Spike,

7,140 posts in this topic

Sadly, this conflict won't end soon. Both sides need to change approach towards peace. I will do my best as an Israeli citizen who recruits in less than two weeks to change the approach of many right-wing Israelis. I can't force but I can try and I have succeed in the past. An approach that will lead to a solution. I hope people at the other side are doing the same if possible.

Mohammed Seif and EBH like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are not objective.

Facts? Data? Why? Any reasons , any answers to my elaborate answers, to all. To all the history i gave?

I challenge your views as a non arab and a non Israeli . Therefore i am that third party claiming you commit crimes against humanity just like the UN does.

Maybe, being part of it like you do, is hindering objectivity, not me however...

Leo Festinger - cognitive dissonance reduction .... That is what i see. I wish you good luck in the army. May you like general Peled, Niko Peled, Avrami from Sin Beth and many others become more peaceful when you get out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to ask both @CHOULO19 @Stingray a simple question. You guys seem to know a lot and I am completely serious. What in your opinion must Israel do? You have to take in consideration the safety of the state.

Because from what I have studied it's very hard to point on a clear solution.

Stingray likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Facts? Data? Why? Any reasons , any answers to my elaborate answers, to all. To all the history i gave?

I challenge your views as a non arab and a non Israeli . Therefore i am that third party claiming you commit crimes against humanity just like the UN does.

Maybe, being part of it like you do, is hindering objectivity, not me...

Leo Festinger - cognitive dissonance reduction .... That is what i see.

You are not objective because you are delivering a message that blames Israel completely. I am seeing very one-sided facts from you. Please be more objective.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are not objective because you are delivering a message that blames Israel completely. I am seeing very one-sided facts from you. Please be more objective.

Yes, because now i am seeing an Israël that is much different from that i saw before the second intifada. I know there is no excuse for terrorism, but in the context of the palestinians ........ Only they are victims in the present.

A democratic country that upholds values as you (Israël) do, should know better. It doesnt mean i do not challenge islamic extremisme,as well. But it does mean I challenge a country who claim to be better when they are committing crimes against humanity. Eg UN, Human rights watchers and many neutrals .... But hey, it is always met with comments like: you are biased, not neutral, antisemetic, .... Even towards Israeli left wing people , intellectuals who say the exact same thing I do.

Why is that not objective .... Cause it feels a bit awkward?

haranr and Mohammed Seif like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, because now i am seeing an Israël that is much different from that i saw before the second intifada. I know there is no excuse for terrorism, but in the context of the palestinians ........ Only they are victims in the present.

A democratic country that upholds values as you (Israël) do, should know better. It doesnt mean i do not challenge islamic extremisme,as well. But it does mean I challenge a country who claim to be better when they are committing crimes against humanity. Eg UN, Human rights watchers and many neutrals .... But hey, it is always met with comments like: you are biased, not neutral, antisemetic, .... Even towards Israeli left wing people , intellectuals who say the exact same thing I do.

Why is that not objective .... Cause it feels a bit awkward?

I completely agree. I do not support the Israel of now. I support the Israel of Rabin! Of Barak! My friend how can you forget the past??? I mean it's part of the conflict. You should not only put 100% focus on what's happening now. BTW, please answer my post that I posted 12 minutes ago. I really want to hear your opinion. Thanks.

Stingray likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to ask both @CHOULO19 @Stingray a simple question. You guys seem to know a lot and I am completely serious. What in your opinion must Israel do? You have to take in consideration the safety of the state.

Because from what I have studied it's very hard to point on a clear solution.

I think the first thing to realize now is that you are going to win every battle if you continue but lose the war. Like the former Sin Bet head says: only a leap of trust can get us out of this situation. This is not a leftie saying this, it is the former head of the secret service for years .

But no more peace processes while having the settlers do the exact opposite like during the Oslo accords would be the first step imo. A dual State may have been an option, but im not sure it is now. I hope so though.

Mohammed Seif and haranr like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the first thing to realize now is that you are going to win every battle if you continue but lose the war. Like the former Sin Bet head says: only a leap of trust can get us out of this situation. This is not a leftie saying this, it is the former head of the secret service for years .

But no more peace processes while having the settlers do the exact opposite like during the Oslo accords would be the first step imo.

Agree. Now, per say Israel does that. Can you promise that there will be no terror?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to ask both @CHOULO19 @Stingray a simple question. You guys seem to know a lot and I am completely serious. What in your opinion must Israel do? You have to take in consideration the safety of the state.

Because from what I have studied it's very hard to point on a clear solution.

Right now? End the attack. End the siege on Gaza. Stop making new settlements. Offer much improved living conditions to the Palestinians to allow less extremists groups to take the front stage. Poor, oppressed people make wars and revolutions. Free people with a decent life want nothing to do with war and violence. You want to stop the Hamas rockets? Give the Palestinian people a chance to have a good life and they will get rid of Hamas or anyone who wants to take away the peace they have.

To solve the entire conflict? Complete integration. One integrated state with people of all religions living side by side with equality. I do not believe the two-state solution can ever bring peace because there can be none while a Jewish only state exists with dreams of the 'promised land'. The situation has to return to what it was like before the 1940s where Muslims, Jews and Christians lived in land together as equals. That is to me the ONLY route to peace. Though I cannot see how that is ever realistically possible. Certainly not in my lifetime.

EBH, Mohammed Seif, Dion and 1 other like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agree. Now, per say Israel does that. Can you promise that there will be no terror?

After all those years. No. Confidence will have to be built again. But just as much as Hamad is a fucking pain in the ass, so is right wing and certainly conservative (eg Rabin) Israël. So ...... Culture change which is hard now I believe. Still, i think Israël needs to make a good first step.

Uk had to go out on a limb with the IRA and ultimately Shin Fein to make it work. Wounds still never healed im sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After all those years. No. Confidence will gave to be built again. But just as much as Hamad is a fucking pain in the ass, so is right wing and certainly conservative (eg Rabin) Israël. Uk had to go out on a limb with the IRA and ultimately Shin Fein to make it work. Wounds still never healed im sure.

You have not suggested a thing. Israel gives them a state. Israel cannot control them, Israel certainly cannot attack them like Israel does now. There will be more attacks. Israel needs a 'partner'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You have not suggested a thing. Israel gives them a state. Israel cannot control them, Israel certainly cannot attack them like Israel does now. There will be more attacks. Israel needs a 'partner'.

1. Control is like a wet bar of soap. The harder you squeeze, the further it flies.

2. Drastically improve conditions to get Hamas out of order - as i said before, it is the agent israel put there to undermine PLO power that bites now.

3. Hope this creates a valid discussion partner, which you lost with the decline of PLO. You will need the peoples support for this.

4. Go for gradual full integration to actieve this.

5. How: full participation of the palestines - eventually. But start with the fundamentals - bit by bit. Give freedom and hope to them. It sounds fluffy but it really isnt. Self determination, freedom of movement, clarity about returning to their land ( or the impossibility of it)

6. Time ....... Too much time.

The alternative is to continue which is a ticking time bomb for the Middle East.

Mohammed Seif and CHOULO19 like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right now? End the attack. End the siege on Gaza. Stop making new settlements. Offer much improved living conditions to the Palestinians to allow less extremists groups to take the front stage. Poor oppressed people make wars and revolutions. Free people with a decent life want nothing to do with war and violence. You want to stop the Hamas rockets? Give the Palestinian people a chance to have a good life and they will get rid of Hamas or anyone who wants to take away the peace they have.

To solve the entire conflict? Complete integration. One integrated state with people of all religions living side by side with equality. I do not believe the two-state solution can ever bring peace because there can be none while Jewish only state exists with dreams of the 'promised land'. The situation has to return to what it was like before the 1940s where Muslims, Jews and Christians lived in land together as equals. That is to me the ONLY route to peace. Though I cannot see how that is ever realistically possible. Certainly not in my lifetime.

End the attack? Sure. End the siege on Gaza? Sure. Will Hamas stop shooting??

Stop making new settlements you shouldn't have said. It's obvious and a fucking disgrace.Offer them improved living conditions with who's money? The state of Israel is not rich. Can you promise that the Islamic radicals only seek good life?? That is not true. Their ideology is above all. Can you promise that while most Palestines have a better life they won't let Hamas take control? You forgot Hamas are not democrats. Hamas will take power in force if needed. One integrated state with people of all religions living side by side with equality IS NOT possible. It's something I wish would have happened but with all the history of this conflict (hatred etc..) It's not possible.

'True peace' is not the target atm. The target is 'cold peace' simply because it's the reality right now. Two states is the soultion. The Israeli nation WILL HAVE given the Palestines a state IF they were promised it will 100% lead to peace or simply a better situation. Sadly, you are not aware that the majorty of the innocent Palestines are ruled by 'bad' rulers such as Hamas. In the West Bank they are ruled by a bunch of corrupt men who will likley lose their control to a more radical Islamic group in the very moment the Palestines are given a state. ATM, non of the sides are 'true' partners for peace.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. Control is like a wet bar of soap. The harder you squeeze, the further it flies.

2. Drastically improve conditions to get Hamas out of order - as i said before, it is the agent israel put there to undermine PLO power that bites now.

3. Hope this creates a valid discussion partner, which you lost with the decline of PLO. You will need the peoples support for this.

4. Go for gradual full integration to actieve this.

5. How: full participation of the palestines - eventually. But start with the fundamentals - bit by bit. Give freedom and hope to them. It sounds fluffy but it really isnt. Self determination, freedom of movement, clarity about returning to their land ( or the impossibility of it)

6. Time ....... Too much time.

The alternative is to continue which is a ticking time bomb for the Middle East.

Couldn't have said it better myself..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. Control is like a wet bar of soap. The harder you squeeze, the further it flies.

2. Drastically improve conditions to get Hamas out of order - as i said before, it is the agent israel put there to undermine PLO power that bites now.

3. Hope this creates a valid discussion partner, which you lost with the decline of PLO. You will need the peoples support for this.

4. Go for gradual full integration to actieve this.

5. How: full participation of the palestines - eventually. But start with the fundamentals - bit by bit. Give freedom and hope to them. It sounds fluffy but it really isnt. Self determination, freedom of movement, clarity about returning to their land ( or the impossibility of it)

6. Time ....... Too much time.

The alternative is to continue which is a ticking time bomb for the Middle East.

How can Israel improve conditions?? With who's money?? It's not simple. The Israeli community would not like that. Their money flies there...'Hope' is not good enough!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sadly, this conflict won't end soon. Both sides need to change approach towards peace. I will do my best as an Israeli citizen who recruits in less than two weeks to change the approach of many right-wing Israelis. I can't force but I can try and I have succeed in the past. An approach that will lead to a solution. I hope people at the other side are doing the same if possible.

Man what a time to be called up :(

You just turned 18?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. Control is like a wet bar of soap. The harder you squeeze, the further it flies.

2. Drastically improve conditions to get Hamas out of order - as i said before, it is the agent israel put there to undermine PLO power that bites now.

3. Hope this creates a valid discussion partner, which you lost with the decline of PLO. You will need the peoples support for this.

4. Go for gradual full integration to actieve this.

5. How: full participation of the palestines - eventually. But start with the fundamentals - bit by bit. Give freedom and hope to them. It sounds fluffy but it really isnt. Self determination, freedom of movement, clarity about returning to their land ( or the impossibility of it)

6. Time ....... Too much time.

The alternative is to continue which is a ticking time bomb for the Middle East.

I will repeat! If Israel does all that?? Can you promise there will be peace and no 'terror' state?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will repeat! If Israel does all that?? Can you promise there will be peace and no 'terror' state?

I think we can promise you that it has a better chance to achieve peace than killing palestinians and making their lives miserable, this is a way I know for sure won't bring peace. As corny as it sounds, violence only generates more violence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we can promise you that it has a better chance to achieve peace than killing palestinians and making their lives miserable, this is a way I know for sure won't bring peace. As corny as it sounds, violence only generates more violence.

Israel does not kill for fun. Israel does not want to kill civilians. Unfortunately they do kill innocent civilians that stand in the way to stop 'terror' (I do not approve that but it happenes and Israel must defend itself). I will ask again. Can the 'international community' promise that if Israel acts right, there will be peace and quiet from the Palestines? I have studied that and there is no promising such a thing. I personally think Israel should follow back to what Rabin did but I understand the claim of many Israelis who say that it's a very naive move that can cause lots of trouble in the future. 'REAL TROUBLE' not like Hamas shooting a couple of 'shit' rockets from Gaza. This is not easy.

MrExcalibur100 likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.