Politics & Stuff

[Fulham Broadway 16,392]

51 minutes ago, CHOULO19 said:

51 minutes ago, CHOULO19 said:

Why Is the Killer of British MP Jo Cox Not Being Called a “Terrorist”?

Glenn Greenwald nailing it as he often does. 

Why Is the Killer of British MP Jo Cox Not Being Called a “Terrorist”?

Glenn Greenwald nailing it as he often does. 

If you ever read Gramsci or Orwell and how the hegemonic corporate media works its all too clear. As most states are currently pro-capital, unopposed right leaning neo liberal -it suits to call any Islamic or Socialist acts of violence terrorism. The reason being, both these ideologies represent a threat to the super rich and Capitalism as an ideology,  and one organ that protects them, along with the police and army - is the corporate media. The corporate media disseminates a constant steam of tittle tattle, divide and rule stories, sport, and generally bullshit for the masses - what the Romans called 'Bread and Circuses' -they discovered wasthe best way to keep the population engaged, non-revolutionary, and pacified. Anyway take a look at these plots and how Fox News didn't call any of them 'Terrorism'. It becomes clear with the assertion from Fox News' Brian Kilmeade: "Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims":

June 8, 2008
Six people, most of them tied to the militia movement, are arrested in rural north-central Pennsylvania after officials find stockpiles of assault rifles, improvised explosives and homemade weapons, at least some of them apparently intended for terrorist attacks on U.S. officials.

October 24, 2008
Two white supremacists, Daniel Cowart and Paul Schlesselman, are arrested in Tennessee for allegedly plotting to assassinate Barack Obama and murder more than 100 black people.

April 30, 2010
Darren Huff, an Oath Keeper from Georgia, is arrested and charged with planning the armed takeover of a Madisonville, Tenn., courthouse and "arrest" of 24 local, state and federal officials.

July 21, 2010
Attorney Todd Getgen is shot to death at a gun range in Cumberland County, Penn., and his weapon, a silenced AR-15 rifle, is stolen. Authorities arrest prison guard Raymond Peake nine days later, saying Peake was trying to accumulate weapons for an unnamed organization that intended to overthrow the government.

Jan. 14, 2011
Federal agents in Arizona arrest Jeffery Harbin, a member of the neo-Nazi National Socialist Movement, for allegedly building homemade grenades and pipe bombs that he apparently intended to supply to anti-immigration groups patrolling the Mexican border.

March 10, 2011
Six members of the antigovernment Alaska Peacemakers Militia, including its leader, Francis Schaeffer Cox, 28, are arrested and charged with plotting to kill or kidnap state troopers and a Fairbanks judge.

Jan. 17, 2011
Bomb technicians defuse a sophisticated improvised explosive device (IED) found in a backpack along the Spokane, Wash., route of a Martin Luther King Jr. Day parade with 1,500 marchers. Using forensic clues found in the dismantled bomb, officials about two months later identify and arrest Kevin William Harpham, a long-time neo-Nazi.

October 5, 2011
White supremacist ex-convict David "Joey" Pedersen, 31, and his girlfriend, Holly Ann Grigsby, 24, are arrested in California after a murderous rampage in three states.

November 1, 2011
Four members of an unnamed North Georgia militia are arrested in an alleged plot to bomb federal buildings, attack cities including Atlanta with deadly ricin, and murder law enforcement officials.

December 10, 2011
Four soldiers, later identified as members of a militia-type group called Forever Enduring, Always Ready (FEAR), are arrested for murdering 19-year-old former soldier and group member Michael Roark and his 17-year-old girlfriend, Tiffany York, because they feared the pair would talk about the group's plans.

April 17, 2012
Joseph Benjamin Thomas and Samuel James Johnson of Mendota Heights, Minn., are indicted on federal weapons and drug charges following an investigation into their alleged plans to form a white supremacist group called the "Aryan Liberation Movement" and commit violence against minorities, leftists and government officials.

 

 

[CHOULO19 24,332]

8 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

If you ever read Gramsci or Orwell and how the hegemonic corporate media works its all too clear. As most states are currently pro-capital, unopposed right leaning neo liberal -it suits to call any Islamic or Socialist acts of violence terrorism. The reason being, both these ideologies represent a threat to the super rich and Capitalism as an ideology,  and one organ that protects them, along with the police and army - is the corporate media. The corporate media disseminates a constant steam of tittle tattle, divide and rule stories, sport, and generally bullshit for the masses - what the Romans called 'Bread and Circuses' -they discovered wasthe best way to keep the population engaged, non-revolutionary, and pacified. Anyway take a look at these plots and how Fox News didn't call any of them 'Terrorism'. It becomes clear with the assertion from Fox News' Brian Kilmeade: "Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims":

There was a clip of Noam Chomsky (which I can't seem to find now) replying to people calling the media promoting the interests of the rich a 'conspiracy theory'. He says that's like saying that it's a conspiracy theory that executives are trying to maximize profits for the their companies. Of course they are. 

[CHOULO19 24,332]

But the mail and mirror are correct, the shooter is just a quiet mild-mannered guy with mental issues...oh and some Nazi regalia!

[Fulham Broadway 16,392]

6 minutes ago, CHOULO19 said:

There was a clip of Noam Chomsky (which I can't seem to find now) replying to people calling the media promoting the interests of the rich a 'conspiracy theory'. He says that's like saying that it's a conspiracy theory that executives are trying to maximize profits for the their companies. Of course they are. 

Thing is the people that own the corporate media are the super rich,  Nearly all the tabloid media in the UK is pro Brexit -theyre trying to blame immigrants etc, and ''inform'' their readers that refugees and immigration is the source of all their ills = but the main reason theyre so pro Brexit is that the EU has media ownership monopoly regulations

CH4 (best news in the UK} now saying the murder of Jo Cox was possibly Right Wing Terrorism and that he wasn't a 'loner'.

Chomsky normally spot on

“Everyone’s worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there’s really an easy way: Stop participating in it.”

[CHOULO19 24,332]

52 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

Thing is the people that own the corporate media are the super rich,  Nearly all the tabloid media in the UK is pro Brexit -theyre trying to blame immigrants etc, and ''inform'' their readers that refugees and immigration is the source of all their ills = but the main reason theyre so pro Brexit is that the EU has media ownership monopoly regulations

CH4 (best news in the UK} now saying the murder of Jo Cox was possibly Right Wing Terrorism and that he wasn't a 'loner'.

Chomsky normally spot on

“Everyone’s worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there’s really an easy way: Stop participating in it.”

On Brexit (which btw sounds like it was made up by a 15 year old girl), I'm obviously not as informed as Brits, but I think that there are valid arguments to be made for exiting the union, but certainly not the ones being made, if you can even call fear mongering and xenophobia as 'arguments'. And frankly the arguments for staying, particularly on the left, don't sound honest at all. I don't think Corbyn himself believes what he's saying about it. Wasn't existing the union a typically left position? 

The main argument for staying in the UK, for me, is that leaving would leave Britain much more vulnerable to US influence, especially on foreign policy, which is not at all in the best interest of the world. Basically, all the points that I believe are central to this issue are not even being address by the main stream media. Ironically, probably the best analysis I've heard about the referendum is from a comedian:

 

 

[lucio 5,391]

the main reason i'd vote to leave, if i was registered, is to control the population , its already the second densest in europe, and with a net migration of over 300k a year, just not sustainable or healthy, especially for the enviroment, forests are always being cut down around here for new housing, immigration is not the only factor for this, but a big one.  and also it is obviously bad for the culture

as for the economics, I have no idea, probably better to stay, and I think we will

[Muzchap 8,966]

13 hours ago, CHOULO19 said:

Seems like it has not been rubbished. On any account, it is best to wait for the full investigation, I guess, not that the media will care. We've seen this a million times regardless of the facts:

White shooter --> Mentally ill --> Lone wolf.

 

Sorry, I know this will sound bad, but honestly reading that I couldn't help but think I wish this was the rationale used when shooter is not white, or god forbid, Muslim... 

I use this rationale - regardless of the ethnicity of the perpetrator. 

The colour of your skin or your religion is irrelevant - if you mean to kill innocent people to try and get your beliefs across, your beliefs are wrong. 

That's my view on it. 

I never agreed with the IRA - they blew up my cousins in Ireland, I never agreed with the Ulster Freedom Fighters, I don't agree with any terrorism. Killing in the name of a God is a hypocrisy beyond belief. Killing a person because they killed a family member I get - that's retribution plain and simple, but in the name of God? Nope! This is why I'm happy being an aethiest. I think on the last census my religion was actually Jedi ?

[Fulham Broadway 16,392]

2 hours ago, CHOULO19 said:

On Brexit (which btw sounds like it was made up by a 15 year old girl), I'm obviously not as informed as Brits, but I think that there are valid arguments to be made for exiting the union, but certainly not the ones being made, if you can even call fear mongering and xenophobia as 'arguments'. And frankly the arguments for staying, particularly on the left, don't sound honest at all. I don't think Corbyn himself believes what he's saying about it. Wasn't existing the union a typically left position? 

The main argument for staying in the UK, for me, is that leaving would leave Britain much more vulnerable to US influence, especially on foreign policy, which is not at all in the best interest of the world. Basically, all the points that I believe are central to this issue are not even being address by the main stream media. Ironically, probably the best analysis I've heard about the referendum is from a comedian:

 

 

You probably are as well informed re Brexit as most of us. It is a complex issue, and the only reason the referendum is happening is because Cameron didn't want a load of MPs defecting to UKIP.

The one common denominator the left and right had was they were both anti -Europe. It was for instance the one thing that the late Tony Benn and Thatcher agreed on.

Now a lot of the left, in the face of rampant neo-liberalism, regard some of EU legislation as a moderating factor. Theres a lot of corrupt cronyism in Brussells as with most political centres - but I will vote to remain just for a couple of reasons. The first is the Working Time Directive - It guarantees maternity leave, paternity leave, four weeks holiday even for temps, and workers security. Legislation that benefits the majority, not just a few. If we come out, guaranteed, those provisions would be removed under a race to the bottom economy. Also, 86% of air blowing across the UK has come from Europe - without common laws to protect air from pollution the planet is doomed if countries just do their own thing. One more thing most of the Brexiteers tend to be nutcases

[cosmicway 1,252]

Brexit is no good for me.
It means no freedom of movement, no trade and commerce, no-no-no ....
Those who seem to be very happy are the extreme right wing and the communists.
Greek communists are planning street parties if Brexit wins.
Cameron talks about ISIS too. I don't have muslim acquaintances or neighbours to verify this. Only a Kuwaiti friend who used to admire Margaret Thatcher.
I hope it loses.
The immediate effect for us in Greece will be strong and aggressive communism.

[cosmicway 1,252]

Greece was liberated in 1944 by the Brits.
The departing nazis were rounding up villages setting them on fire and shooting the civilians.
Because the British forces were weak a communist insurgency followed.
So as soon the last nazi troops were north of the border, communist rebels entered the remaining small villages, setting them on fire rounding up the populations and shooting them.
Lasted until 1949.

[We Hate Scouse 10,260]

1 hour ago, cosmicway said:

Brexit is no good for me.
It means no freedom of movement, no trade and commerce, no-no-no ....
Those who seem to be very happy are the extreme right wing and the communists.
Greek communists are planning street parties if Brexit wins.
Cameron talks about ISIS too. I don't have muslim acquaintances or neighbours to verify this. Only a Kuwaiti friend who used to admire Margaret Thatcher.
I hope it loses.
The immediate effect for us in Greece will be strong and aggressive communism.

Trade and commerce would either be the same or better. The European Free Trade Agreement would still completely cover us, as it does with many other non-Eu states. We could also negotiate better deals with European countries as we'd have a wider audience to barter with.

There's a reason Iceland and Switzerland have revoked their application to join the EU.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

12 hours ago, Muzchap said:

I use this rationale - regardless of the ethnicity of the perpetrator. 

The colour of your skin or your religion is irrelevant - if you mean to kill innocent people to try and get your beliefs across, your beliefs are wrong. 

That's my view on it. 

I never agreed with the IRA - they blew up my cousins in Ireland, I never agreed with the Ulster Freedom Fighters, I don't agree with any terrorism. Killing in the name of a God is a hypocrisy beyond belief. Killing a person because they killed a family member I get - that's retribution plain and simple, but in the name of God? Nope! This is why I'm happy being an aethiest. I think on the last census my religion was actually Jedi ?

I don't think that should be a controversial position at all. The danger though is when you start justifying some violence and demonizing another. Those are not conscious (or rational) choices to do so, but subconscious beliefs hammered in slowly (or rather obviously in this case) by the media that have an agenda, like when to call an attack 'terrorist'. 

If I can add another point, and I'd love your opinion on this, I think that people have this morally baseless idea that individual violence is much more wrong than systematic faceless violence carried out by states and other systems of power. 

 

12 hours ago, Fulham Broadway said:

You probably are as well informed re Brexit as most of us. It is a complex issue, and the only reason the referendum is happening is because Cameron didn't want a load of MPs defecting to UKIP.

The one common denominator the left and right had was they were both anti -Europe. It was for instance the one thing that the late Tony Benn and Thatcher agreed on.

Now a lot of the left, in the face of rampant neo-liberalism, regard some of EU legislation as a moderating factor. Theres a lot of corrupt cronyism in Brussells as with most political centres - but I will vote to remain just for a couple of reasons. The first is the Working Time Directive - It guarantees maternity leave, paternity leave, four weeks holiday even for temps, and workers security. Legislation that benefits the majority, not just a few. If we come out, guaranteed, those provisions would be removed under a race to the bottom economy. Also, 86% of air blowing across the UK has come from Europe - without common laws to protect air from pollution the planet is doomed if countries just do their own thing. One more thing most of the Brexiteers tend to be nutcases

A lot of people on the left don't want to vote out to not associate themselves with racists and bigots, but that's a rather weak argument in my mind. Even for social services, the idea of them being imposed by an unelected foreign committee is still undemocratic. But I absolutely get that things like social services and worker rights are about practicality not just principles so I would agree with you there (it's like the old argument some anarchists make that we should be against social services because it creates a 'parental' relationship between the state and citizens which makes them reliant on this corrupt system of power, but obviously if it keeps an orphan from starting to death (till the 'revolution') then I can't see how you can morally be against it).

I am of course as well for freedom of movement and as someone who believes in socialist values, I do think that people and communities are better off together as long as everyone is represented. I especially like the idea of a unified Europe that can oppose a US hegemony.

On the other hand, I don't think even the people for stay actually believe that they can reform the EU. The thing is, the EU is not 'corrupt'. It is very much designed to be a tyranny to promote the benefit of corporations. I was too young when the EU started and I only came to know how messed up it is set up hearing Yanis Varoufakis explain it all. Then you have TTIP which you will likely be forced to sign if you stay which is one of the gravest dangers to the world along with the other 'free trade' agreements. 

All that said, I would be shocked if the UK actually leaves because all of Labour and basically the Tory mainstream are behind the stay campaign. Which is probably the main reason why, if I were a Brit, would probably vote leave. NOTHING gives me more pleasure than pissing off corporations and mainstream parties.

 

4 hours ago, We Hate Scouse said:

Trade and commerce would either be the same or better. The European Free Trade Agreement would still completely cover us, as it does with many other non-Eu states. We could also negotiate better deals with European countries as we'd have a wider audience to barter with.

There's a reason Iceland and Switzerland have revoked their application to join the EU.

It's true, they recovered faster because the EU did not force on them the crazy austerity measures that the IMF itself publishes study of how counter productive they are (and because Iceland actually jailed the criminal bankers instead of bailing them out with tax money). 

But the problem with that rationale is that most of the people you would be empowering by voting to leave the EU are more in favor that the EU itself of austerity and other insane financial policies that punish the most vulnerable people in society and benefit no one but the super rich.

There has to be another answer... 

[Fulham Broadway 16,392]

On a macro level Europe has been at war for centuries. The Great War was initially 'the war to end all wars', and then we saw what happened as countries suffered staggering inflation National Socialism was allowed to grow resulting in well over 100 million killed in both conflicts. The EU has so far stopped any such re occurences of slaughter on that scale. Make no mistake war in Europe with disunified states would probably be global Armageddon.

Iain Duncan Smith, Gove, Farage, and Alexander de Pffeifel Johnson say their ''leave campaign'' is about taking back control. What we have seen in the debate so far are these politicians using the  referendum to avoid responsibility for their own failures, and in Johnsons case a vague chance of being Tory leader is his motivation. Trump n Johnson -fuck me, Gawd elp us guvnor.

We are told immigration is to blame for all the problems we face - but the fact is the NHS is way underfunded-even Greece spend more of their GDP on health than the UK, and the Govt have also failed to build sufficient houses. Brexit under the tories would not address these issues-if anything progress on their agenda, from employment rights to trade deals and the NHS, would make them worse.

Brexit under the tories might make a few multi milionaires like Farage and Johnson richer, but we know for the rest of us millions of people it would be worse.

The EU under pressure from European Trade Unions has guaranteed - The right to full holiday pay when you take leave, the right to equal pay for agency workers preventing them being used as cheap labour, TUPE rights if your job is transferred, and proper Health and Safety law protecting you in the workplace.

Under the tories all the above rights have been attempted to be removed or watered down, quite often they refer to it as ''red tape'' -but it is only the EU that have kept them in place. Personally I would probably be better off under Brexit,  but a social conscience wants better for the majority rather than just a few.

 

[Muzchap 8,966]

8 hours ago, CHOULO19 said:

I don't think that should be a controversial position at all. The danger though is when you start justifying some violence and demonizing another. Those are not conscious (or rational) choices to do so, but subconscious beliefs hammered in slowly (or rather obviously in this case) by the media that have an agenda, like when to call an attack 'terrorist'. 

If I can add another point, and I'd love your opinion on this, I think that people have this morally baseless idea that individual violence is much more wrong than systematic faceless violence carried out by states and other systems of power. 

 

A lot of people on the left don't want to vote out to not associate themselves with racists and bigots, but that's a rather weak argument in my mind. Even for social services, the idea of them being imposed by an unelected foreign committee is still undemocratic. But I absolutely get that things like social services and worker rights are about practicality not just principles so I would agree with you there (it's like the old argument some anarchists make that we should be against social services because it creates a 'parental' relationship between the state and citizens which makes them reliant on this corrupt system of power, but obviously if it keeps an orphan from starting to death (till the 'revolution') then I can't see how you can morally be against it).

I am of course as well for freedom of movement and as someone who believes in socialist values, I do think that people and communities are better off together as long as everyone is represented. I especially like the idea of a unified Europe that can oppose a US hegemony.

On the other hand, I don't think even the people for stay actually believe that they can reform the EU. The thing is, the EU is not 'corrupt'. It is very much designed to be a tyranny to promote the benefit of corporations. I was too young when the EU started and I only came to know how messed up it is set up hearing Yanis Varoufakis explain it all. Then you have TTIP which you will likely be forced to sign if you stay which is one of the gravest dangers to the world along with the other 'free trade' agreements. 

All that said, I would be shocked if the UK actually leaves because all of Labour and basically the Tory mainstream are behind the stay campaign. Which is probably the main reason why, if I were a Brit, would probably vote leave. NOTHING gives me more pleasure than pissing off corporations and mainstream parties.

 

It's true, they recovered faster because the EU did not force on them the crazy austerity measures that the IMF itself publishes study of how counter productive they are (and because Iceland actually jailed the criminal bankers instead of bailing them out with tax money). 

But the problem with that rationale is that most of the people you would be empowering by voting to leave the EU are more in favor that the EU itself of austerity and other insane financial policies that punish the most vulnerable people in society and benefit no one but the super rich.

There has to be another answer... 

Hey Choulo, 

i think the key word here is 'propaganda' - for example the Iraq war - Iraq was painted as a hotbed of extremists running around with WMDs - so the popular opinion thanks to media bias and propaganda was - we need to get them, before they get us!

this was a justification 

many, many innocent people were killed - on a 'basis' that never existed 

however - do you think the British media ever reported a 'stray' bomb that blew up a hospital? No, they simply reported the victories. The quote about history only being written by the victors is extremely apt and was still true in the early 00's. 

I think the population know there are casualties (innocent) during war, but it's somehow socially acceptable not to mention it because the populace is fed the great lie of 'it's for your own benefit'

control the media and you essentially control the hearts and minds of the people. 

This is why the Brexit debate is so toxic as both camps have media control - you would imagine that this would be a beneficial situation, however, sadly it is not. What passes as 'journalism' now is essentially over-hyped click bait and spurious half truths or complete lies being widely accepted, it's almost comical that people 'have' to believe the media, as it absolves them of guilt from previous atrocities carried out for their benefit. 

Only now will you find a groundswell of opinion that the Iraq war was stupid and that the lie about WMD was true - but it has taken years for this to seep into the collective conscious.... It's a real shame that propaganda and media manipulation by a few has such drastic worldwide ramifications. The world is running in a devolutionary state - education is typically seen as less cool and people want to be fed answers rather than ask questions and explore alternative hypothesis. I do wonder how this will end and makes me keep second guessing whether I should bring a child into this world. 

Sadly - in my heart - I know that a global conflict is less than 20 years away - I just know that things are on the precipice at the moment across the globe, the media is twisting and distorting facts - Right Wing Extremist movements are on the rise in every nation fighting a false battle - nothing good comes from ignorance and small mindedness

anyway, wow went off topic there  sorry for the long post

[CHOULO19 24,332]

@Muzchap human civilization in it's current form is not sustainable. Something has got to give, I feel in this current century. If it's not a global war, it's going to be a nuclear disaster or an environmental catastrophe. There's a reason why the doomsday clock is at its closest to midnight since 1984, and we escaped that through nothing short of a miracle. We can't get that lucky twice.. 

[cosmicway 1,252]

On 18/6/2016 at 0:11 PM, We Hate Scouse said:

Trade and commerce would either be the same or better. The European Free Trade Agreement would still completely cover us, as it does with many other non-Eu states. We could also negotiate better deals with European countries as we'd have a wider audience to barter with.

There's a reason Iceland and Switzerland have revoked their application to join the EU.

EU itself is a trade agreement basically.
It's either good or bad. It does n't make sense to knock the symbol EU anymore than it makes sense to say London should not be our capital, but Bristol.
But it's not only that. It is also the political wing of the NATO alliance and many people see it as "home". It's been 65 years now. People were born and died as EU citizens. It's not last year's product.
What you say has little chance of materialising because we are in the midst of a hate environment, created by the Brexiteers and others similar.
Other thinks more diabolical stand a higher chance of happening.

[cosmicway 1,252]

Look, the heart of Brexit beats here:

- Monopoly industries. Big business is divided two ways. Those who want open markets and look forward to internationalise and those who want to lock the customers to a single choice. The former are bremainers, the latter are brexiters.

- Race hate. Brexiters say no, but it's an elephant on the roof learning foreign languages (as the saying goes). We are now being subjected to a deluge of hate propaganda against foreign nurses and nuns "stealing" the jobs from "poor Britons".

So that's how the system works.
Anything else would n't even make a Brexiteer wake up in the morning and go to the polling station.

[Fulham Broadway 16,392]

In the 72 hours since the Orlando shootings another 93 people have been shot to death in the US, and 203 are seriously injured or critical from shootings   -but as the NRA say its nothing to do with the guns, its the people.