Kevin de Bruyne

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Also to add Jose/the club sold him knowing he was capable of a really good career, that wasn't the reason he didn't work here, this wasn't a blind sale like Matic's was, for example.

I did actually say that in the post but you can add it again if you wish

[lionsden 4,689]

That's an unfair assessment that is partly factually incorrect.

First, Jose was rotating heavily last season, especially in the first half of the season when he was still trying to figure out his best team and we had a lot of options available. In Kevin's position, we basically had 5 players for two spots. Jose was rotating Oscar and Mata in the center and Willian and Schurrle on the right while Kevin got the odd game in the cups.

Now, I don't know what the pleasure is in pinning everything on Jose, but to me, it is very clear that it is a three-way 'blame'.

On Kevin himself: For playing very poorly in the league cup matches he did start and failing to take the few chances he got and mentally cope with the pressure. And for not showing enough in training to compel Jose to give him more chances.

On Jose: Despite that I (along with every Chelsea fan at the time) thought that he was right not to start Kevin in the league with the form he was on, he should have had him on the bench more often to try to bring him back to form and raise his morale. And also for playing him in those rare chances out of the central position he shined in in preseason.

Just plain bad luck: In the injury he sustained in preseason which meant that he did not play any match with some of the senior players and that he was not 100% physically ready for the start of the season. Add to that the Mata 'crisis' that kept him away from the position where he was most suited to.

You said it yourself, kevin was 5th on the pecking order behind oscar,mata,willian and schurrle right from the start. It would have been well within any ambitious players right to leave.

Ultimately though, it boils down to the manager: how highly he rates a player and the willingness or unwillingness to rotate the squad more often and efficiently. If jose really wanted kdb to play, he would have received more game time than he did. Thats the bottomline.

I do agree that kdb didn't cover himself in glory with his performances in the coc though.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

You said it yourself, kevin was 5th on the pecking order behind oscar,mata,willian and schurrle right from the start. It would have been well within any ambitious players right to leave.

Ultimately though, it boils down to the manager: how highly he rates a player and the willingness or unwillingness to rotate the squad more often and efficiently. If jose really wanted kdb to play, he would have received more game time than he did. Thats the bottomline.

I do agree that kdb didn't cover himself in glory with his performances in the coc though.

But he wasn't fifth choice from the start. He actually started our first two matches of the season. It was his performances that bumped him down to fifth choice along with the fact that other combinations seemed to click for us. You can say whatever you want about Jose, but last season, especially in the first month or so, he gave equal chances to ALL the players in the first team. I think after the first 4 or 5 matches all the fit players in the first team had started at least one match except Essien IIRC who got his first start in the first COC match.

[Styles 9,790]

But he wasn't fifth choice from the start. He actually started our first two matches of the season. It was his performances that bumped him down to fifth choice along with the fact that other combinations seemed to click for us. You can say whatever you want about Jose, but last season, especially in the first month or so, he gave equal chances to ALL the players in the first team. I think after the first 4 or 5 matches all the fit players in the first team had started at least one match except Essien IIRC who got his first start in the first COC match.

If I recall correctly KdB played well against Hull in the opener. He didn't feature for whatever reason in the second game against Villa at home. In the third game away at Old Trafford he played 60 mins before being subbed off - the whole team played badly that day (largely down to Mourinho's cowardly tactics). I guess KdB didn't do a good job man-marking Evra because after that point he struggled to get back into the team.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

If I recall correctly KdB played well against Hull in the opener. He didn't feature for whatever reason in the second game against Villa at home. In the third game away at Old Trafford he played 60 mins before being subbed off - the whole team played badly that day (largely down to Mourinho's cowardly tactics). I guess KdB didn't do a good job man-marking Evra because after that point he struggled to get back into the team.

Yes, he played very well again Hull and was probably MOTM, then he had terrible game against united and was subbed off. Then he started in the first COC match a few games later and was terrible that he had to wait for the following COC match to play.

As I said, Jose need to have had him more often on the bench to try to bring him on, even for a few minutes, and to give him confidence. But at this level you only have yourself to blame if you don't take chances.

[Styles 9,790]

Yes, he played very well again Hull and was probably MOTM, then he had terrible game against united and was subbed off. Then he started in the first COC match a few games later and was terrible that he had to wait for the following COC match to play.

As I said, Jose need to have had him more often on the bench to try to bring him on, even for a few minutes, and to give him confidence. But at this level you only have yourself to blame if you don't take chances.

Name one player who played well in that game.

[DYC. 7,542]

Yes, he played very well again Hull and was probably MOTM, then he had terrible game against united and was subbed off. Then he started in the first COC match a few games later and was terrible that he had to wait for the following COC match to play.

As I said, Jose need to have had him more often on the bench to try to bring him on, even for a few minutes, and to give him confidence. But at this level you only have yourself to blame if you don't take chances.

Have we not seen Oscar, Willian, Ivanovic, Cahill and others produce terrible performances more than once?

Come on, Choulo, this has nothing to do with taking chances. Mou and KDB obviously clashed in some way. Add no game to the mix and you have a player who wants to leave. That story of insufficient effort in training was such nonsense. Looking at how Mou would highlight Oscar's defensive efforts clearly shows the type of player he wanted in the middle. And KDB is not someone you put out wide, tracking fullbacks and what not.

That said, I don't really blame Mou or the club. It sucks, but these things happen. You let a player go (easily) and they end up doing very well. Every club goes through that. Instead of just focusing on the few individuals that did well, think about the hundreds that didn't do well or didn't do enough to mourn losing them.

EDIT: Leaving Chelsea was a great career move for KDB. I don't care for the fighting for your place talk. Everyone is different. One person would rather stay and give it a go, the other would rather leave and play elsewhere.

[iseah100 5,612]

Hindsight is 20/20.

[The Mak 4,459]

It's pretty simple Eden is an easy going type guy who people really like and who is a bit of jokester. KDB isn't an easy guy to get along with because he's a bit of a red ass.

Given that Jose is a bit of a red ass it's not really to hard to imagine that the personalities of Jose and KDB clashed.

In 99% of the cases you don't want that type of issue occurring. KDB appears to be the 1% exception where his talent is so overwhelming that you put up with his somewhat difficult nature.

Sorry for only responding now, I couldn't yesterday.

That bolded part is interesting because it was something similar to some things people were assuming here, but I suppose you would be in the best position to make that call. Is that general perception of Kevin in the Belgian media then? A bit stubborn?

[The Mak 4,459]

Compare Zouma and Azpilicueta pathways to KDB one.

Zouma was 3rd choice centre back since the summer. We didn't buy another central defender to block his way IIRC. If we supposedly signed Benatia then it would be a whole different story. Even without this signing, it demanded a consistent shit performances of Cahill for Zouma to have a proper sniff only in a January !

Azpilicueta already had a year to settle in the team and in the league, played huge amounts of games prior to Mourinho's arrival. At first, Ivanovic and Ashley Cole were the starting players but it also demanded shit performance of Cole, especially that travesty at Newcastle, to have a look in. It was rather pissing off at Cole, more than anything else, that caused Mourinho to convert right-back to left-back, since Mourinho isn't known for changing someone's position.

And last thing, Azpilicueta had a direct way to the team, since he was a first replacement.

Let's not even compare this with KdB situation, when there was 30m pounds signing for his position right at the end of the window. Also was 20m pounds signing earlier in the window, also for his position. Two new players to accommodate. Plus someone as talented as Hazard, plus our two times player of the year Mata, plus our boss pet Oscar ... Jesus ... Oh, let's not forget that there was also allergic reaction to any thought of rotation from Mourinho. Plus KdB was 22 yo, new league, new environment. This mission to break-through in a short period of time was like impossible.

I simply can't put a blame at all on Kevin. NONE. Maybe he could be a little more patient, BUT, he didn't see any encouragement from manager that the situation will change so if the club is after you and pay serious money to put you on a stage vs. this sick situation, I know what I'd choose.

Lastly, it's no coincidence how quickly our players want to be sold. Mata went as soon as offer arrived despite his love for this club, KdB the same. Schurrle also was happy to leave despite his fondness of London, Salah already said that he doesn't even consider coming back to Chelsea. Demba Ba also was happy to jump out of the ship quickly and also doesn't speak extremely well of the situation in Chelsea. All in all, it is what I already said, Mourinho absoulutely removes any kind of confidence from his squad players. For some, he's brilliant, he plays them week and week out despite shitness, gives them a blanket when there's a cold, takes extremely care of them, they can play piss poor yet they will have enough time to retain their form and for the other ones he's pain in the ass, who sucks up any hope and care for football. And when he FINALLY plays them after a huge break, they can look like they wouldn't even break into Shrewsburry team. Simply shit and bereft from any kind of passion.

It's a pity that Kevin didn't turn out to be the player under this Mourinho protection. There was a hope after Jose's comments on him back in the summer but then Willian and 30m pounds purchase happened.

I fear that Cuadrado is on the same route, he already played without even a pinch of confidence last Sunday and we saw how shit he was. Let's not even say that he's that shit, he isn't. Does Mourinho already works his magic on him ?

I understand your points about the signings and the pig-headedness from Mourinho regarding certain players; as I said, most of the blame lies with him.

However, as for the highlighted part, I just cannot agree. If you put on the shirt, you should be giving it your best every second you are out there. If you think someone has an agenda against you, you go go out there and prove them wrong. Put on such a performance that it would be impossible for them to drop you. It should give motivation, even if its only fleeting. And if its still not working, then yes, by all means head for the exit; but at least go out fighting. I don't think KDB bothered and that I can't excuse.

[Rapkun 668]

It's difficult to put blame on Jose for this one.

Jose had a new squad and started looking for a working formula. To start on that squad you had to prove your worth which clearly KDB hadn't. He lost his place after the MU game, and failed to win it back. Willian was cumulating the good performances and was very consistent, hard working player while KDB was literally walking in the carling cup games. I rated him highly after the pre-season and I bet Jose felt the same but he did not show it on the field.

Azpi was in a similar situation at the start, but he took his chances very well and look at him now he's playing every game despite signing Filipe Luis. The players were not picked for their price tag but for their merit. I think the most worrying part about his situation here was that Jose criticized his training. I can't remember any manager complaining about their players in training before. that was a first for me.

World cup or not. I felt like KDB was a spoiled kid who can only blame himself for failing at chelsea.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Name one player who played well in that game.

JT. He got MOTM IIRC. Now you name one player that played worse than Kevin in that game.

Have we not seen Oscar, Willian, Ivanovic, Cahill and others produce terrible performances more than once?

Come on, Choulo, this has nothing to do with taking chances. Mou and KDB obviously clashed in some way. Add no game to the mix and you have a player who wants to leave. That story of insufficient effort in training was such nonsense. Looking at how Mou would highlight Oscar's defensive efforts clearly shows the type of player he wanted in the middle. And KDB is not someone you put out wide, tracking fullbacks and what not.

That said, I don't really blame Mou or the club. It sucks, but these things happen. You let a player go (easily) and they end up doing very well. Every club goes through that. Instead of just focusing on the few individuals that did well, think about the hundreds that didn't do well or didn't do enough to mourn losing them.

EDIT: Leaving Chelsea was a great career move for KDB. I don't care for the fighting for your place talk. Everyone is different. One person would rather stay and give it a go, the other would rather leave and play elsewhere.

Here's the difference: Kevin failed to take the chance he was given when Jose was seriously giving chances to everyone in the first team because he did not know who his best team was at the time.

If him and Jose have 'obviously clashed in training', don't you think there would have been questions asked at the time about his sudden disappearance? But all our fans were actually saying that Jose was right to bench him especially after the COC performances.

Of course it was the right decision for him to move on at the time but it was also the right move for the club and at a pretty good sum.

[DYC. 7,542]

JT. He got MOTM IIRC. Now you name one player that played worse than Kevin in that game.

Here's the difference: Kevin failed to take the chance he was given when Jose was seriously giving chances to everyone in the first team because he did not know who his best team was at the time.

If him and Jose have 'obviously clashed in training', don't you think there would have been questions asked at the time about his sudden disappearance? But all our fans were actually saying that Jose was right to bench him especially after the COC performances.

Of course it was the right decision for him to move on at the time but it was also the right move for the club and at a pretty good sum.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. For me, some players got/get more opportunities because they fit a certain profile he has in mind. And that's fair, but that makes it hard for the others.

There weren't? I remember many questions being asked about his exclusion. The same with Mata. I remember Mou making a comment about how if he plays player X, people will ask why he is not playing player Y, and vice versa.

And all our fans? I don't remember that either. Are you sure about that? I thought a pretty big group wanted to see more of KDB, especially after all the pre-season hype. I know I wanted to see him play more. A few poor performances don't change my mind about a player.

[Laugh1ngMan 393]

Yes, he played very well again Hull and was probably MOTM, then he had terrible game against united and was subbed off. Then he started in the first COC match a few games later and was terrible that he had to wait for the following COC match to play.

As I said, Jose need to have had him more often on the bench to try to bring him on, even for a few minutes, and to give him confidence. But at this level you only have yourself to blame if you don't take chances.

An important thing to remember is that he was MOTM against Hull but even in that match he got subbed after 60 min.

I think it's pretty clear Mou didn't rate him highly for whatever reason, much the same as with Mata.

I remember some interviews with Jose last season were he was talking about the fact that having the right attitude is very important to him (understandable after his Real Madrid troubles) and after the omission of Dieter Hecking about the difficult persona of KdB my best guess would be that was the main reason he didn't rate him that high.

Personally i don't think there is anything wrong with judging players on their charachter, especially if you are trying to build a squad with a certain profile where everybody is fighting for each other and such but in this case i feel he misjudged the potential of KDB as an attacking force and he should have given himself a serie of 90 min games to prove himself. And in a year with very little pressure to win anything it was stupid not to try out more things.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. For me, some players got/get more opportunities because they fit a certain profile he has in mind. And that's fair, but that makes it hard for the others.

There weren't? I remember many questions being asked about his exclusion. The same with Mata. I remember Mou making a comment about how if he does not play player X, people will ask why he is not playing player Y, and vice versa.

And all our fans? I don't remember that either. Are you sure about that? I thought a pretty big group wanted to see more of KDB, especially after all the pre-season hype. I know I wanted to see him play more. A few poor performances don't change my mind about a player.

There was some fuss made by non Chelsea fans Belgians on Facebook, but no one blamed Jose for not playing him after the game against Swindon.

An important thing to remember is that he was MOTM against Hull but even in that match he got subbed after 60 min.

I think it's pretty clear Mou didn't rate him highly for whatever reason, much the same as with Mata.

I remember some interviews with Jose last season were he was talking about the fact that having the right attitude is very important to him (understandable after his Real Madrid troubles) and after the omission of Dieter Hecking about the difficult persona of KdB my best guess would be that was the main reason he didn't rate him that high.

Personally i don't think there is anything wrong with judging players on their charachter, especially if you are trying to build a squad with a certain profile where everybody is fighting for each other and such but in this case i feel he misjudged the potential of KDB as an attacking force and he should have given himself a serie of 90 min games to prove himself. And in a year with very little pressure to win anything it was stupid not to try out more things.

I think an important thing to remember as well is that that Hull match was Kevin's first in over a month since his injury and thus probably was not ready for 90 mins. If Jose did not rate him he would not have started him again Hull or especially away at Old Traford.

[Styles 9,790]

JT. He got MOTM IIRC. Now you name one player that played worse than Kevin in that game.

Of course you'd name a defender. With the 'tactis' Mourinho so often deploys in away games, the defenders are well protected, much to the detriment of any attacking game. Even Cahill looked like a world beater in 2013-2014 when we know he's distinctly average if we aren't parking the bus.

Name one attacker in that game who performed even marginally better than Kevin.

[borriske 330]

Sorry for only responding now, I couldn't yesterday.

That bolded part is interesting because it was something similar to some things people were assuming here, but I suppose you would be in the best position to make that call. Is that general perception of Kevin in the Belgian media then? A bit stubborn?

In the Belgian media he is pretty much idolized, perhaps even more so than Hazard. But i don't think anyone will disagree with the fact that he at the very least is very outspoken, he even admitted it himself iirc. Besides that you can see it clearly in his reactions on and off the field. If he doesn't like something you're gonna notice it.

He grew up only a few miles from where i live, and i know someone who knew him when he was kid. Apparently even then he wasn't the most popular kid on the block. He was always knocking on peopl's doors asking if they wanted to play football with him, but rarely anyone ever wanted.

[hazardousteddybear 16]

Are we still going over this? As much as I like KDB, the facts are (at least I hope they're correct):

- Kevin had a hard time breaking through with Jose experimenting with the squad just after he returned to Chelsea, Jose was experimenting and found better options at the time;

- World Cup was nearby and KDB himself says he needs playing time to be in his top shape (not sure if this is a weakness, but on the plus I think he has a pretty injury-free record so far, though he's still young);

- Upon joining Wolfsburg he said he harbored no bad feelings towards Chelsea and Jose. This can be seen in two different ways: he doesn't have a grudge or he does have but does not express it, in which case he has a professional attitude (which I think he has because of his response concerning Courtois and the Belgian national team)

- Have you heard sensational remarks coming from KDB about Chelsea lately? Nope, hence all is fine and the best we have is our speculation. Compare with Luiz or for a more extreme example Lukaku.

Now the real question may be: is there a chance of KDB coming back in the future, and if so would we want him? While I think the first one is positive, I figure the answer to the second question is a no. I have seen him defend from time to time, but not to a standard that would satisfy Mourinho. Under a Mourinho system I can't see De Bruyne being granted a "free-roaming" role, when Hazard has that privilege. I feel De Bruyne belongs in a counter attacking club or one that focuses most its attacks through the center (rookie opinion).