Gary Cahill

[Jase 43,479]

That's because he is quietly effective. These threads are only ever active when we're slagging someone off. Today TalkChelsea is slagging off a man having a very good season.

But the funny thing is Cahill has made blunders before and yet this thread has never turned out to be as it is now..

[didierforever 7,349]

That's the whole point, though. That is the issue with most of the English media and a lot of fans with Luiz. They expect a back four that is always tight and stays together on the same line and defend against players collectively. But for Luiz, defending has a completely different meaning. It's not that he's doing those things poorly, it's that he's not trying to do them because to him, and a lot of Spanish and South American CBs, there can be another philosophy to defending. Guys like Luiz, Ramos, Puyol, Hummels...etc they don't just sit back and stay tight, they want to charge forward and intercept and clear; they try to snuff out danger before it becomes danger; they go forward and play 1v1 and quite often win the ball. And that's still a foreign concept in the PL because managers have just started to accept such change in the mentality and philosophy of defending in the last couple of seasons with Luiz here, Vertongen in Tottenham. Carvalho was somewhat similar and he was superb for us because Jose understood how he played, while Pique, who is one of the highest rated CBs in the world now couldn't get into Ferguson's team.

here in lies the problem. ramos, puyol, pique, hummels play in teams that actually WANT their defenders to be pro-active where as i seriously doubt that about us.

i totally agree with what phildriver has said (only on this thread though), that defending is all about the back 5 being on the same wavelength and defending like a unit. barca, bvb have a very different ideology from ours and it is simply wrong comparing their defenders to ours to prove a point.

it wont be the other 10 players who will adjust and mould their-selves to luiz's style of play. the change has to come from luiz himself.

[robsblubot 3,205]

here in lies the problem. ramos, puyol, pique, hummels play in teams that actually WANT their defenders to be pro-active where as i seriously doubt that about us.

i totally agree with what phildriver has said (only on this thread though), that defending is all about the back 5 being on the same wavelength and defending like a unit. barca, bvb have a very different ideology from ours and it is simply wrong comparing their defenders to ours to prove a point.

it wont be the other 10 players who will adjust and mould their-selves to luiz's style of play. the change has to come from luiz himself.

There lies the problem... there is no 'us' anymore. Chelsea like any other top English club is an international brand, which is the only way the investments made make any sense!

Like CHOULO wrote, the teams who are playing a far more dynamic and unpredictable football, at club and international level, are indeed winning all trophies; not to mention playing the football that sells tickets and tv adds.

Roman does want a piece of that (more attacking football) as it has been reported ad nauseam:

AVB time:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2172276/Andre-Villas-Boas-hits-Roman-Abramovich.html

More recent:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2384228/Jose-Mourinho-says-Roman-Abramovich-pressured-play-sexier-football.html

a number of other articles on the subject can be found online.

[didierforever 7,349]

There lies the problem... there is no 'us' anymore. Chelsea like any other top English club is an international brand, which is the only way the investments made make any sense!

Like CHOULO wrote, the teams who are playing a far more dynamic and unpredictable football, at club and international level, are indeed winning all trophies; not to mention playing the football that sells tickets and tv adds.

Roman does want a piece of that (more attacking football) as it has been reported ad nauseam:

AVB time:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2172276/Andre-Villas-Boas-hits-Roman-Abramovich.html

More recent:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2384228/Jose-Mourinho-says-Roman-Abramovich-pressured-play-sexier-football.html

a number of other articles on the subject can be found online.

roman may want whatever he wants... this is jose's team, and i have no doubt what-so-ever on who will be calling the shots here. also i have no doubt on the kind of football jose wants to play.

also please, tell me the midfield of those teams that are winning international tournaments. its basically spain who has won a WC and 2 euros and barca who have dominated europe.

tell me there midfield its xavi, xabi, iniesta, silva, fiberglass all together... we have mata(bench material for spain), hazard (3-4 years away from his prime), oscar who is playing awesome right now but was hopelessly missing during large chunks of last season. add to that lamps (a 35 year old CAM) who is now playing as a CDM.

u have to look at the kind of play those teams play compared to ours. barca can afford to give away 2 goals cos they know they can hit 5, not so much for the PL. we are here comparing apples and oranges.

[DYC. 7,542]

Gary makes at least as many mistakes as Luiz does; they are just different kind of mistakes, which some here are more "used to." They lead to goals all the same though.

The difference, which people here seem to choose to ignore, is that the whole team suffers when a technically inferior player like Cahill plays. He provides no technical edge against the opposition. The defense line plays very deep, too deep for a home game! City had most of possession and people immediately complained about the pivot... Pivot! Pivot! reminds me of an old Friend's episode.

Football is a very dynamic game where the lines are intertwined. When your defenders don't have the ability to join and perform tasks in the midfield, that affects how the team plays. If your CB sits deep, the entire defense line will play deep, which will invariably affect your team's ability to keep possession and allow your opponent to push high up the pitch (like City did). You can start any CM in the world in the "pivot" and if they don't get help from all other lines they will fail.

Finally, the opinions here usually go strongly against the the "opinions" of the transfer market. So, either you know something all the professional scouts, coaches, and managers don't, or you are just plain wrong; personally I'd go with the latter. David Luiz is sought after by the top clubs in the world, while Cahill is essentially anonymous in the footballing world.

If you want to play a defender of Cahill's characteristics, if you truly believe that is the better option, then by all means you should be looking to unload David ASAP (he won't sit on the bench quietly with so much interest in him) and to get another player similar to Cahill, but technically better than him. I've followed Terry's career and at no point during his long career at Chelsea he's been as easily beaten by opponents as Cahill is. Terry is just a much superior player in every aspect of the game; a far better footballer and honestly, we shouldn't settle for anything less.

I like Gary, I really do, but as a rotation player, never a starter. However, ever since he's become a regular for the national team, there is a push for him to become a regular at Chelsea too - from pundits and (mostly England) supporters alike. Here's something people may realize but not say: Chelsea are a top team, but England aren't. So, what is good enough for England isn't necessarily good enough for Chelsea. England have about 4-5 world class players, which is way short of becoming WC contenders - reckon this is fodder for another thread though.

Excellent post.

[chelseathebest 150]

He will work with Luiz and Luiz has to do the same, because I know Mourinho wants to trust him as his first choice CB.

Do you seriously believe that Luiz would ever be Mourinho's first choice CB with Terry in the same team? lol

[robsblubot 3,205]

DYC. thanks.

roman may want whatever he wants... this is jose's team, and i have no doubt what-so-ever on who will be calling the shots here. also i have no doubt on the kind of football jose wants to play.

also please, tell me the midfield of those teams that are winning international tournaments. its basically spain who has won a WC and 2 euros and barca who have dominated europe.

tell me there midfield its xavi, xabi, iniesta, silva, fiberglass all together... we have mata(bench material for spain), hazard (3-4 years away from his prime), oscar who is playing awesome right now but was hopelessly missing during large chunks of last season. add to that lamps (a 35 year old CAM) who is now playing as a CDM.

u have to look at the kind of play those teams play compared to ours. barca can afford to give away 2 goals cos they know they can hit 5, not so much for the PL. we are here comparing apples and oranges.

We've disagreed on Roman and Mourinho before: to me Mourinho is an employee, nothing more. He got sacked before and can be sacked again. It's Roman's club as he paid and pays very well for it.

Now interesting you see Barcelona as a team that scores a lot and also concedes a lot; that's not how I see them. Their possession game is actually very defensive in essence, which is what I alluded to in my earlier post. If you keep the football the other team cannot hurt you. That's also a way a player like David Luiz helps your side defensively, by helping keep possession. And we don't have to think Barcelona only, City also is a possession side and they push their defense line very high very often.

The in-form Barcelona did not concede many goals and I reckon they only score a lot because of one player: Messi. Look at Spain for example. They play in the exact same way, with many of the key players, but have a really hard time scoring, but also don't concede many goals. They are known as the 1x0 champions after all.

What you say about Barcelona is how I see Bayern these days. Honestly, football is changing and we have to change along. I have nothing against counter-attacking football as it has worked wonderfully many times for me (club and international levels). But like I said, football is changing, becoming more dynamic, and I don't think Roman spent all that money buying luminaries to play counter-attacking football. Even Mourinho said so when questioned about Mata, that there will be a *transition* period, but the end goal is indeed changing the style which has been the same since he left (according to him in the same post-match interview).

BTW, hope this is not completely OT since we are (implicitly) discussing whether a player like Gary would fit this or that style...

[didierforever 7,349]

DYC. thanks.

We've disagreed on Roman and Mourinho before: to me Mourinho is an employee, nothing more. He got sacked before and can be sacked again. It's Roman's club as he paid and pays very well for it.

Now interesting you see Barcelona as a team that scores a lot and also concedes a lot; that's not how I see them. Their possession game is actually very defensive in its essence, which is what I alluded to in my earlier post. If you keep the football the other team cannot hurt you. That's also a way a player like David Luiz helps your side defensively, by helping keep possession. And we don't have to think Barcelona only, City also is a possession side and they push their defense line very high very often.

The in-form Barcelona did not concede many goals and I reckon they only score a lot because of one player: Messi. Look at Spain for example. They play in the exact same way, with many of the key players, but have a really hard time scoring, but also don't concede many goals. They are know as the 1x0 champions after all.

What you say about Barcelona is how I see Bayern these days. Honestly, football is changing and we have to change along. I have nothing against counter-attacking football as it has worked wonderfully many times for me (club and international levels). But like I said, football is changing, becoming more dynamic, and I don't think Roman spent all that money buying luminaries to play counter-attacking football. Even Mourinho said so when questioned about Mata, that there will be a *transition* period, but the end goal is indeed changing the style which has been the same since he left (according to him in the same post-match interview).

BTW, hope this is not completely OT since we are (implicitly) discussing whether a player like Gary would fit this or that style...

it is roman's club but he has entrusted mourinho to do what is best for the CLUB. not for himself. but as u said, we already have had that discussion and lets not go there again.

i admit about the play of style and sooner or later we will be playing an ADAPTATION or a modified version of barca's game. but at this moment, can we? for me, more important than having a ball-playing/ball-winning defender is having a WC pivot. rambo has been phenomenol this season and had a very good season last time but i feel he is some way off being called WC. lamps is no where near a wc DM, he is not even a DM. the examples u give about barca, BM and city each have midfielders who would walk into world XIs. for me the problem is not in defence but in mid atleast about the point u r talking.

Till then, till the point we are still in the transition period and until we get an identity of our own, and actually find our feet, we have to make do with what is best for us for the moment. cos winning is as important a part as is the football we play.look at arsenal, some of the best football was played with fiberglass and yet no trophies and moreover the lynchpin of their team moved on. hence, we have to find a middle road and for me, right now, GC is a good enough fit alongside JT.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

here in lies the problem. ramos, puyol, pique, hummels play in teams that actually WANT their defenders to be pro-active where as i seriously doubt that about us.

i totally agree with what phildriver has said (only on this thread though), that defending is all about the back 5 being on the same wavelength and defending like a unit. barca, bvb have a very different ideology from ours and it is simply wrong comparing their defenders to ours to prove a point.

it wont be the other 10 players who will adjust and mould their-selves to luiz's style of play. the change has to come from luiz himself.

But that's the thing, can't the EPL incorporate those kind of defenders? I think it will have to because teams in the PL always want the best players and currently, most of the best defenders in the world are more like Luiz and less like Carragher and JT. Can no team with different ideologies than that of the Spanish model have defenders like that? You ignored my Carvalho example and he played in a Mourinho side that pretty much played traditional English football. What about Luiz himself last season? After Jan, we played with a lower block and defended with two banks of four; hardly the way your Barcas and Madrids play. And yet Luiz was our second most important player, imo, after Mata.

I think Luiz has played too great at times and helped us win too many things for us to say that he can't play with the team.

[Bir_CFC 3,455]

He will work with Luiz and Luiz has to do the same, because I know Mourinho wants to trust him as his first choice CB.

Do you seriously believe that Luiz would ever be Mourinho's first choice CB with Terry in the same team? lol

I'm pretty sure we play with 2 CBs in the first XI.

[didierforever 7,349]

But that's the thing, can't the EPL incorporate those kind of defenders? I think it will have to because teams in the PL always want the best players and currently, most of the best defenders in the world are more like Luiz and less like Carragher and JT. Can no team with different ideologies than that of the Spanish model have defenders like that? You ignored my Carvalho example and he played in a Mourinho side that pretty much played traditional English football. What about Luiz himself last season? After Jan, we played with a lower block and defended with two banks of four; hardly the way your Barcas and Madrids play. And yet Luiz was our second most important player, imo, after Mata.

I think Luiz has played too great at times and helped us win too many things for us to say that he can't play with the team.

i think most of the questions u r asking, i answered to those in my last post to robguima.

as for luiz, in the last season, i feel he was brilliant as a midfielder. i have said that in the DL thread too while arguing with tomo. he was in a brilliant moment and we were playing a style of football which suited him. we were playing a very open game (compared to what we are right now).

carvalho's example again comes back to the point of having that support from midfield. we had one of the best DMs who had the position itself named after him (makelele), later we had essien who was thought to be the next makelele. also JT was in his prime then, much quicker than he is now. i feel a lot of things are different between carvalho and DL. i feel, DL's understanding of the game and defense in general in better compared to carvalho 's but he is also more error prone.

also JT-carvalho formed the most amazing pair as a CB which DL-JT have not even come close to. what JT-carvalho had was special and expecting that again would not be right. i feel it is more than just football that can explain their understanding, balance and composure with each other.

[Phil Driver 503]

Yesterday was his game ,English conditions corners free kicks and hard tackling up Norf demanded a Vidic style centre half who fancied putting his head and foot in next to John Terry ,we were weak and tepid and were their for the taking ,Cahill must play over Christmas where it is all about terrible conditions and strong brave players who do not bottle 50/50 tackles and duck out of headers.

[Blue Armour 4,158]

As someone who prefers Luiz to Cahill, I think Gary has more than earned his chance to start matches on a more consistent basis. Apart from the goal which Aguero scored during the City game, I can't think of too many instances where he has put a foot wrong this season, and his partnership with Terry has been mostly solid. I suspect he will start the match against Schalke, like he did in Germany

[Special Juan 27,093]

Immaculate tonight, take note Luiz, just a super performance.

[kellzfresh 7,226]

No mistakes, his passing looked better today

[bababoom 4,478]

Fantastic tonight, IMO our best partnership is Cahill-Terry, they look so solid.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Made a couple of mistakes, but was fantastic otherwise. Excellent in the air today, as well.

[didierforever 7,349]

should be trusted more by mou than has been the case. GC has consistently performed wonderfully and has not done anything wrong this season (aguero's goal was cech's mistake, not GC's). moreover GC-JT partnership looks solid and wonderful. dont see any need to break it up without a reason just to give luiz another chance.