Gary Cahill

[Jase 43,479]

I can't wait to see the back of him, never even close to being a decent player. Most top clubs in Europe are desperate for centre halves, no one came calling for Cahill. Even when we bought him Arsenal only wanted him as a back up, but not for more than the 6 million they were willing to pay, which is about the price tag for him talent wise.

TBF, Wenger and Arsenal are rather cheapskates when it comes to transfer. Even when the price of a player is reasonable, they still want to pay below what is expected or needed to get that player.

[ChelseasMessiah 304]

TBF, Wenger and Arsenal are rather cheapskates when it comes to transfer. Even when the price of a player is reasonable, they still want to pay below what is expected or needed to get that player.

I wound't call them cheap, they are wise. They just spunked over 40 mill on someone who is worth every penny.

[YouNameIt 1,511]

Two words: positional discipline. Add to that he is a "typical English centre-half" and throws absolutely everything at the ball. Luiz does the same, but not quite to the same extent. Cahill communicates well. Doesn't try and overplay, he simply smacks the ball upfield instead of trying to dribble out of danger. All of those things just condone towards the image of what I like to see in a centre-back. People are entitled to disagree, but no-one is going to change my opinion, which is based out of my own preferences of what I demand from a defender.

And that's your opinion. On the other hand, I think Cahill does the simple things far more effectively than Luiz.

What it boils down to is Cahill plays what you would expect a £7 million defender to perform. Is Luiz a £24 million defender? Not a chance in Hell.

You are right. He's probably a £35m defender.

[didierforever 7,349]

You are right. He's probably a £35m defender.

its all relative.

would luiz be worth 35mil to barca in the system they play. u can bet everything u have on it. he would be immense for them. a perfect fit to play alongside puyol/pique as the last man.

for us has he been anything close to 24mil. as alex said "NOT A CHANCE IN HELL".

[lucio 5,371]

Two words: positional discipline. Add to that he is a "typical English centre-half" and throws absolutely everything at the ball. Luiz does the same, but not quite to the same extent. Cahill communicates well. Doesn't try and overplay, he simply smacks the ball upfield instead of trying to dribble out of danger. All of those things just condone towards the image of what I like to see in a centre-back. People are entitled to disagree, but no-one is going to change my opinion, which is based out of my own preferences of what I demand from a defender.

And that's your opinion. On the other hand, I think Cahill does the simple things far more effectively than Luiz.

What it boils down to is Cahill plays what you would expect a £7 million defender to perform. Is Luiz a £24 million defender? Not a chance in Hell.

is playing the striker onside when everyone else steps up positional discipline?

[YouNameIt 1,511]

its all relative.

would luiz be worth 35mil to barca in the system they play. u can bet everything u have on it. he would be immense for them. a perfect fit to play alongside puyol/pique as the last man.

for us has he been anything close to 24mil. as alex said "NOT A CHANCE IN HELL".

I disagree and in all seriousness I cannot understand that there are people that doesnt rate Luiz higher than that.

I think @Barbara's post basically said it all.

I disagree... also just my view.

I think Luiz is a better footballer and a better CB and Mourinho knows it too.

Luiz rarely makes a mistake because of any limitation he may have as a CB (in my opinion he doesn't have any, maybe except aerial duels). He normally makes mistakes because of sloppiness and lack of concentration. From time to time he also pays the price for risking a more aggressive and bold style of defending, but I can't fault him on that because it comes with the package and it's positive especially when 9 times out of 10 that he takes risks we don't pay for it.

Cahill makes mistakes due to his limitations, like today. It wasn't only in the goal, the next attempt he failed yet again. While Cahill's positioning is decent (Luiz's is very good imo and Terry's is nearly flawless) two things make it look worse than it is: 1) he lacks pace and whenever the striker 'surprises' him he can't pursue them fast enough to at least make things difficult [it happened in the goal, he chased Aguero too damn slowly); 2) he lacks vision - or at least his reading of the game is very limited. In the second play I mentioned (I'm almost sure it was a Silva shot inside the box) he was positioned where he should, near the player that could receive the pass and between said player and the one who has the ball. But as he can't read the game well he just stands between both, without properly marking any of them although he's positioned where he should be. Because of the combination of those two things his positioning looks very poor - when in fact it's decent.@JDY, saw it coming and posted it days before the match because against a world class striker Cahill is simply not enough.

@The Skipper, asked you to elaborate further on why you think Cahill is the best CB, I'll jump into the conversation between the two of you and explain why I think Luiz is not only a better footballer, but also a better CB.

I think a CB must have the following aspects to his game:

- good positioning

- good vision/reading to defend, to move, to anticipate, to cover,

- good movement

- pace

- aerial prowess

- good reflexes

As a bonus a CB can also offer:

- aggressive defending (the risks I mentioned above)

- good pass

- vision to build the plays from behind

- score goals (headers, free kicks, penalties)

- intuition.

Out of the 'must' package there isn't one thing I think Cahill is better than Luiz. Maybe they're about the same with header clearances, but tbf while I know Luiz isn't impressive on that, I don't remember exactly how Cahill is because when it comes to that all I can see is John Terry and how immense he is on that. So maybe there's a tie here, or even something that Cahill is better, but I don't think so because if he was really good on that I guess I would remember him for that.

Cahill does textbook defense and in order for a CB to offer above average defending while doing textbook defending he must excel in those aspects and honestly while he is decent in some, good in others, there isn't one of those things I think he's superb.

Then there's the bonus parts that is the opposite of textbook defense and in all those things (maybe exception scoring headers once in a while) Cahill fails in all of them. So all in all imo Cahill is decent, but not enough a good player to be in a club like Chelsea - unless he's a squad player.

Luiz problems are from a different nature - which doesn't exempt him from them. He sometimes lacks concentration and he can be sloppy at times. I do fault him for that, especially because for Brazil those things happen way less often. I don't know why that happens. There are a lot of factors and possible reasons, but I can only speculate. Maybe because it's he plays for the NT much less, or because he's an extreme patriotic player and he plays his blood for Seleção [if that's the case, I guess it's psychological and something he can't control because he already proved and showed his passion for us], or maybe it's because he plays by Thiago Silva and that can make a whole difference [although Terry has been nothing short of brilliant for us]. Still I don't feel he does that on purpose, he's showed and proved his passion for us, I think it's more a psychological fault he has.

At the end of the day I feel like Luiz makes mistakes because he isn't constant enough whereas Cahill make them because he isn't good enough.

I'm about to post on Mourinho's thread about his work with our players and I'll mention Torres, Ramires, Oscar, Schürrle and Terry, but I'll also mention that I think the next in the list is going to be David Luiz.

[didierforever 7,349]

I disagree and in all seriousness I cannot understand that there are people that doesnt rate Luiz higher than that.

I think @Barbara's post basically said it all.

barbara says luiz is better than cahill. i dint say otherwise. luiz is a WC footballer and a good defender who is prone to the weirdest of focus problems.

but tell me (in all seriousness) how has luiz proved his signing of 24mil while cahill has not for 7 mil???!!!

[Tomo 21,681]

Thing is with Cahill he is the 'safe' squad option, in the similar way John o Shea was for Man.Utd, Cahill will rarely make any silly mistimed mistakes Luiz can do because simply he wouldn't risk it, but at the same time his limitation's will mean tactical mistakes and getting outsmarted by high calibre opponents like with Aguero yesterday.

Luiz yes he occasionaly makes the odd brain fart, so does Pique, so did Lucio, so does Dante (see the super cup), top class defenders take more risk's because there's more to their game than merely playing the safe option (There's a lot of times i see Luiz make an interception or a quality tackle where Cahill would have got beaten). Every now and again they will get caught out, but that is the deal you have with cultured defenders, we knew that before we got him, we got have got Cahill instead of him January 2011 if we wanted to play it safe.

When all said and done which type of defenders are (and have been for some time) winning the International tournaments? The cultured defenders or the safe defenders?

Which type of defenders will command big, big money if they move clubs? the Luiz's and Pique's or the Cahill's and Jakielka's?

[YouNameIt 1,511]

barbara says luiz is better than cahill. i dint say otherwise. luiz is a WC footballer and a good defender who is prone to the weirdest of focus problems.

but tell me (in all seriousness) how has luiz proved his signing of 24mil while cahill has not for 7 mil???!!!

Well the way you put it is just wierd. For me personally, I dont give a damn what we bought a player for. What matters to me is performance.

I agree, Cahill for 7m was a fantastic deal. But Luiz is that special kind of CB and that is why we bought him. He has something special and his vision and reading of the game is superb. Like I said, Cahill is the average CB and probably always will be whereas Luiz offers something else. I think Luiz is an absolute great option to put beside someone like Terry. They complement eachother really well.

And regarding Luiz's aggresivity and whatnot....well, that is simply needed sometimes. A CB who always tries to play safe wont make those neccessary interceptions to stop a counter from getting more dangerous.

The only thing I give to Cahill is that he is more diciplined than Luiz, but Luiz to me is a superiour defender and player.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

You are right. He's probably a £35m defender.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

is playing the striker onside when everyone else steps up positional discipline?

[lucio 5,371]

thats pretty sad and does not answer the question

[didierforever 7,349]

so now spain and brazil are winning international tournaments because of luiz and pique??? it has nothing to do with the likes of xavi, iniesta, xabi, mata, silva, fiberglass ALL playing in the same team!!!

one has to take into consideration the type of plays those teams involve compared to ours. jose is not trying to do a BARCA here. he wants 10 men behind the ball when we are not in possession which is totally different to what barca and spain have done with the likes of pique to win those tournaments.

also please take into consideration the midfield of those team. we have a 35 year old CAM playing as a DM whereas those teams have the best CMs and DMs available in the world right now. hence the trophies.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

thats pretty sad and does not answer the question

No, but it asks the question of how good Luiz's positional discipline and overall awareness is, doesn't it?

[Tomo 21,681]

And regarding Luiz's aggresivity and whatnot....well, that is simply needed sometimes. A CB who always tries to play safe wont make those neccessary interceptions to stop a counter from getting more dangerous.

Spot on.

so now spain and brazil are winning international tournaments because of luiz and pique??? it has nothing to do with the likes of xavi, iniesta, xabi, mata, silva, fiberglass ALL playing in the same team!!!

one has to take into consideration the type of plays those teams involve compared to ours. jose is not trying to do a BARCA here. he wants 10 men behind the ball when we are not in possession which is totally different to what barca and spain have done with the likes of pique to win those tournaments.

also please take into consideration the midfield of those team. we have a 35 year old CAM playing as a DM whereas those teams have the best CMs and DMs available in the world right now. hence the trophies.

It's not just with Spain tho, it's been happening for years. Lucio before them two and Blanc in 98 while the likes of Tony Adams were going home at the last 8 stage.

Jose has clearly stated he wants a high pressing team, as Luiz is a lot more suitable to that type of football than Cahiill is

[lucio 5,371]

No, but it asks the question of how good Luiz's positional discipline and overall awareness is, doesn't it?

i never said it was good. just saying cahills isnt good

[BlueLion. 21,491]

Spot on.

It's not just with Spain tho, it's been happening for years. Lucio before them two and Blanc in 98 while the likes of Tony Adams were going home at the last 8 stage.

Jose has clearly stated he wants a high pressing team, as Luiz is a lot more suitable to that type of football than Cahiill is

Which is why Luiz started the last two games. Oh...

Look I thoroughly respect your opinions Tomo, LuicioBrazil and Barbara. But I will withdraw from this debate because my mind won't be changed, and I fear this argument is just going to be a circular one of "Luiz can do this" and "Cahill can do that", etc. etc. Luiz just doesn't do it for me as a football fan. Sure, he's capable of the majestic, but he is equally as able to produce the ultimate in brain-farts. Cahill is a "safe" defender, and that's the type of centre-back that I like

[didierforever 7,349]

Well the way you put it is just wierd. For me personally, I dont give a damn what we bought a player for. What matters to me is performance.

I agree, Cahill for 7m was a fantastic deal. But Luiz is that special kind of CB and that is why we bought him. He has something special and his vision and reading of the game is superb. Like I said, Cahill is the average CB and probably always will be whereas Luiz offers something else. I think Luiz is an absolute great option to put beside someone like Terry. They complement eachother really well.

And regarding Luiz's aggresivity and whatnot....well, that is simply needed sometimes. A CB who always tries to play safe wont make those neccessary interceptions to stop a counter from getting more dangerous.

The only thing I give to Cahill is that he is more diciplined than Luiz, but Luiz to me is a superiour defender and player.

if u actually are considering performances then cahill trumps luiz in that.

we have looked the most comfortable with JT and GC at the back. irrespective of GC's limitations and constraints compared to luiz, we have looked the strongest and the least vunerable with the JT-GC combo.

again, this is not a discussion about who is better between GC and DL (cos i never once have said anything to compare those 2 indivildually). it is about who suits us the most and makes us a better team. for me, the answer has to be GC.

also talking about complementing and things, lets take a look at the 3 combos at the back

GC-JT : P6 W5 D1

GC-DL: P3 W0 D2 L1 (i have considered munich as a draw since the score was 2-2)

DL-JT: P5 W3 D1 L1

goes on to show which has been our best defensive pair.